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4
+14  Q: 

Mono and patents

Hi,

the currently ongoing flame wars on the subject Mono and patents I wanted a look behind the curtains and propaganda material from both sides, but this doesn't seem to be so easy.

What seems to be pretty clear is that anything not under the ECMA standard is endangered, especially libraries - but on the topic of the standard covered material the argumentation becomes very vague.

Also are compiler features such as LINQ covered in ECMA standard and/or patented. Since they are not clearly a "seperatable library".

Does anyone know how this all affects the ECMA covered part really (especially if there are specific technologies covered by the patents, in this case which technologies). It would be nice if the answers also explain why a part is affected or not - I am not looking for beliefs, there are plenty of them on the internet already.

Thanks

+4  A: 

Wikipedia: Mono and Microsoft’s patents.

Mono’s implementation of those components of the .NET stack not submitted to the ECMA for standardization has been the source of patent violation concerns for much of the life of the project. In particular, discussion has taken place about whether Microsoft could destroy the Mono project through patent suits.

The base technologies submitted to the ECMA, and therefore also the Unix/GNOME-specific parts, may be non-problematic. The concerns primarily relate to technologies developed by Microsoft on top of the .NET Framework, such as ASP.NET, ADO.NET and Windows Forms (see Non standardized namespaces), i.e. parts composing Mono’s Windows compatibility stack. These technologies are today not fully implemented in Mono and not required for developing Mono-applications. Richard Stallman of the Free Software Foundation has stated it may be "dangerous" to use Mono because of the possible threat of Microsoft patents. For this reason, the FSF recommends that people avoid creating software that depends on Mono or C#.

On November 2, 2006, Microsoft and Novell announced a joint agreement whereby Microsoft agreed to not sue Novell’s customers for patent infringement. According to Mono project leader Miguel de Icaza, this agreement extends to Mono but only for Novell developers and customers. It was criticized by some members of the free software community because it violates the principles of giving equal rights to all users of a particular program (see Novell and their Patent Agreement with Microsoft)

Edit:

I am not a lawyer, so I don't know how much software patent can be enforced, but Apple for example has licensed Amazon's 1-Click for iTunes. I found United States Patent 7162723 ASP.NET HTTP runtime, for example, I think describing general mechanism of ASP.NET. In there, there's a huge list of reference patents. There's also Systems and methods for a database engine in-process data provider, which covers ADO.NET.

Like I said, I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know how much of this would hold up in court, but my guess is they will have pretty good chance since unlike other software Mono is a direct imitation of .NET platform. Then again OSS has a long history ripping off of proprietary software's ideas like BSD, GNU, GNUStep, etc.

Much like the copyright and the music piracy issue, as long as we operate under the rule of law, we need to obey the law. If we don't agree with it, we need to tell the politicians and change the law. Richard Stallman thinks it's ok to rip off software ideas (I agree with him), but as a society we need to balance personal freedom and rewarding investors who has put in billions of dollars to come up with the idea. We have global warming and car companies to worry about in the US, so intellectual property issue is likely not going to change anytime. So we are back to square one, living in fear of lawsuits.

eed3si9n
may be non-problematic - This is not very specific, what I am looking for is why this may be problematic or what causes the problems there.
Fionn
@Fionn: I understand your problem here -- but that just is the problem with patents! No one on earth can tell you what is problematic or not, when you have a just reasonable complex part of software. That just is the problem with patents. Microsoft knows this, that is one reason they are patenting like hell. See also my answer ...
Juergen
A: 

I am not totally aware of what is happening with .Net and Mono. But I know patent issues. You can see the Linux-lawsuit of SCO, that is running for years. Patents are much worse. Since Patents represent "innovations" and the difficulty, how to find out what exactly is covered by an "innovation", and the problem that courts have to decide about such things, it is a grand vabangue game! Anything, that could be covered by any patent, is endangered! Also specially when it reaches some "visibility" -- like the Mono project.

In patent-lawsuits always the one with the most money has the advantage -- specially in the US.

Microsoft is known not only for always trying to spoil standards to kill competition, but also for recent threads against Linux and the Open Source community. There are also rumors, that Microsoft at least was financing the Linunx-lawsuit indirectly. Microsoft knows the Open Source competition and as business gets sour will be more likely try to use its power (patents and others) to stop the Open Source movement. Mono is one project that might be in focus in the first row -- and no standards will stop a furious bull!

Juergen
Well, the OP *did* request propaganda material, but still... More rumour and conspiracy theories than actual fact in your post.
jalf
@jalf: I can only give information I have. And it is the truth. Everybody believes what he wants to believe -- that I recognize in all the Mono discussions. It is very sad, that it splits the OS community. One point for Microsoft and a big disadvantage for those that should be a community and not a bunch of waring tribes.
Juergen
It seams here are plenty of Mono-Enthusiasts. When I am wrong, please tell me, what is wrong -- not only state your own believes. You can go on and find out, what will happen -- but don't blame me.
Juergen
The 'patent problem' is not limited to Mono as you mention with SCO. MS has a bad history, but I think they are heading the right direction. The problem is the patent system. IMO any company greater than a certain TBD size should not be able to hold and enforce patents.
kenny
@Kenny: Yes, the patent system is the trouble, I agree. But I don't think that MS can be trusted. They might now head into the right direction, but just wait -- money making is not about making friends!
Juergen
+5  A: 

A nice text is available here: http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/124/ - it touches patents and some other issues. Worth reading, not a standard rant.

viraptor
+13  A: 

A great thing happened. Microsoft placed the C# and the CLI spec under the "Community Promise", this means, roughly said, they promise they will never sue you from using or implementing this standard. This is legally binding.

Linq is a different thing. It's partly a C# language feature using the functional programming framework subset System.Linq. The C# side is safe, but I don't know about System.Linq.

I'm a happy Mono user, and even if Microsoft sues about some parts of the framework, the OSS world will quickly write a new framework on top of the CLI spec, which is now free of danger.

Microsoft places CLI and C# ECMA Standard under Community Promise

Miguel de Icaza commented on this on his blog: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise

Update: If you still worry about the parts of .NET called ADO.NET, ASP.NET and WinForms, Jon Pryor has written an in depth article about why one should not refuse from using the Mono implementation because of patent dangers: How To Defend Against Software Patent FUD

Dykam