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520

answers:

13

Just wondering if any of you use agile with scrum for game development. How much do you deviate from it? I am particularly interested in how much it affects your game design document. To me it seems, contrary to what I have read, you need some kind of GDD, just not as detailed because that would be taken care of by the backlogs. Thanks.

EDIT: when I did my searching I found on places like gamasutra that scrum did not seem very prevalent or desired.

EDIT: also, please (no offense to anyone intended), only answer if you specifically know about agile/scrum with game development. Thank you.

A: 

http://www.paf.com does, successfully.

Martin
Thank you for the link but do you have any stories or articles about how it was used?
johnny
In other words, prove it.
Ricket
A: 

SCRUM works quite well for just about any type of development, game or otherwise, because it acts as a very effective way to keep everyone on the same page when it comes to projuct status.

In all of the projects (and teams) I have worked on which used SCRUM every single one did it just a little different than the last. It's not so important that you follow the methodology to a T, but rather that you pick and choose the elements that work for your team. There's no reason you can't hold SCRUM meetings in a waterfall development environment, after all. :)

Nathan Taylor
+2  A: 

G'day,

Firstly, Scrum is an agile framework for the development of software.

One of its big things is to measure and adapt the Scrum process to suit. It's not really deviating from "the one true path of Scrum".

We used Scrum for the development of the BBC's iPlayer and adapted the process to suit a couple of very specific points when working with the BBC.

Secondly, I wonder if you're mistaking requirements for implementation here when you are talking about a GDD. The aspects of the implementation do not need to be captured early on and will be covered by the backlog as you point out. The only thing you should be capturing at an early stage that can lead to implementation type decisions is things like:

  • maximum response time,
  • maximum number of concurrent players,
  • is it MOG,
  • etc.

As Mike Cohn says, "measure and adapt the process to suit."

Edit: After having a think about your comment below, I did some hunting around and came across a site devoted to Agile game development that has a strong Scrum focus. I found his presentation on lessons learnt to be particularly interesting. Though not specifically Scrum focused, there are some really interesting points raised.

HTH

cheers,

Rob Wells
Yes. I'm sure I am confused. I still can't imaging not planning as much so I'm trying to grasp how folks really do it.
johnny
@johnny, just added a link to a site that I found that has some really interesting resources. Hope it helps.
Rob Wells
Scrum is not specific to software development, *Scrum is a simple framework for complex projects*.
Pascal Thivent
@pascal, can't quite parse that statement. Scrum was developed for S/W projects. You trying to extend it to Kanban?
Rob Wells
@Rob No, no, I'm not, and I'm quoting Ken Schwaber here BTW. Even if the first *implementation* of Scrum was on a S/W project (at Easel Corporation in 1993), even if Scrum works well for S/W projects because most of them are complex by nature, Scrum doesn't target only S/W projects, this is a misconceptions (show me anything specific to S/W projects in the Scrum framework). Scrum can be and has been used to create startups, to manage a wedding, to manage a library, a school, to build hardware, etc (e.g. http://scrumforteamsystem.com/processguidance/v2/FAQ/FAQ.aspx#nonSoftware)
Pascal Thivent
@Pascal. Interesting. I knew of its use outside of S/W but only for very specific types of deliveries. Mainly those where incremental aspects can be undone and redone after feedback from the product owner. BTW Thanks for the link to a great Scrum resource. +1
Rob Wells
+2  A: 

We used Scrum for game development, for a while. It didn't seem to make any positive difference to anything so it was abandoned quite quickly. The 'cross-functional' team aspect just seems to drag people away from their actual work too much, just like any other meeting. Not to mention that a lot of the time, the Scrum teams are counter-productive, since lots of game programming tasks need no cross-disciplinary coordination and others need lots.

And the aspect regarding changing requirements and the like is largely irrelevant because that's exactly how most game studios end up working anyway. Delivering monthly milestones is par for the course, and you don't need Scrum to tell you that.

You will always need a game design document. Scrum may let you do away with the need for a technical design document but a game is a holistic system, not just a collection of shippable features. You can't ship Chess before you've implemented pawns. Even with Scrum, you still need to know where you want to end up - you just stop trying to micro-plan the whole project and instead plan out each section as you come to it.

Kylotan
Sounds like you implemented it wrong. You say that the cross-functional stuff drags people away from their "actual work." If the scrum they're part of isn't considered their "actual work", then it breaks down the opportunity for focused development. Scrum isn't something that's an optional plugin; it has to be given precedence or it fails.
Mike D.
The fact is that this idea of assigning one varied team of people to one bunch of work for a whole scrum cycle is actually far LESS agile than the way I've usually worked in game companies, which often involves working on something different every day, with different people every day. Only early on in the dev cycle can you find convenient packages of cross-disciplinary work for 2 to 4 week chunks.
Kylotan
I wish we could get more responses to this. It is interesting. Curious. Are you a programmer at your company (if you are at liberty to say.)
johnny
Me? Yeah. I just found it interesting that Scrum was actually far less agile than our usual methodology. I think it would have worked earlier in the process but not in the second half. The 'short' typical cycle of Scrum (eg. 2-4 weeks) is actually far too long for your internal customers (Art, Design, QA, etc).
Kylotan
+3  A: 

I know at least Ubisoft and other big companies uses SCRUM, but some other smaller game companies too.

You can see some articles on the subject on gamasutra.com like this one : http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3724/top_10_pitfalls_using_scrum_.php

You can also read some game-developpement with scrum specialists like : http://www.agilegamedevelopment.com/blog.html

Klaim
+1 for the blog link, I have been tracking its RSS feed for a while now... Except I'm way behind in my RSS feed reader so I can't comment on its usefulness. :-\
Ricket
I actually found the first link but also found the response: http://www.agilegamedevelopment.com/2008/07/feedback-top-10-pitfalls-using-scrum.htmlThanks for the links.
johnny
+4  A: 

I know the Tabula Rasa team (Destination Games) adopted Scrum a couple months after launch. Those developers I spoke with were happy with it, and one said that had they adopted it a year and a half earlier, the game would have been in much better shape at launch, and might not have been canned. From the outside, I saw that, after they adopted Scrum, bugs got dealt with much faster (1-2 months from bug report to fix on production server instead of 4) and it didn't keep them from delivering content updates.

One thing they liked was the requirement to present their work at the end of a scrum, which kept everyone informed as to what has been done already, so the other developers know what's there and don't waste time reinventing a wheel. Another nice thing was not having to go up and down the chain of command to get departments working together.

Mike D.
no bureaucracy - I like it.
johnny
Not "no" bureaucracy. More like no bureaucracy from the scrum is formed until it's done. It really helps things knowing that they guy you're working with isn't going to get pilfered at any moment, and if you need someone who is in another scrum, you just have to wait the two weeks for their scrum to finish before you have a shot at grabbing them. It's like cooperative multitasking instead of preemptive.
Mike D.
+5  A: 

EVE Online uses Scrum & Agile for their game development.

In fact you can hear all about it in this hour long EVE Online dev team talk about just that subject.

Learn how the greatest game studios create games. In this session Senior Technical Producer Aðalsteinn "Alli" Óttarsson and Lead Game Designer Noah "Hammerhead" Ward tell a tale of how CCP migrated its 3 studios on 3 continents to large scale Agile development.

alt text

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqsReCZD4hc

Gary Willoughby
A: 

Yes, a number of people use Agile/Scrum for game development, with varying success. Some people are highly critical of it. Others love it. High Moon Studios has been the most vocal about their Agile practices that I know of. Their employees have contributed a number of articles about it to sites like Gamasutra and GameCareerGuide.

I've heard a lot of mumbling about Agile/Scrum from within the game industry. It seems like what happens a lot is that a manager decides to use Agile without really understanding the methodology or how to apply it. I have not used it but my impression from the stories I hear is that Agile techniques work well if applied correctly, but can dangerously hinder productivity if misapplied.

Dan Olson
+3  A: 

I've worked in video games for several years in Chicago, both at Midway Games, and Robomodo, and I've used a lot of different agile development practices in both places.

In my opinion every aspect of video game development needs to be fundamentally agile. Agile development is essentially a set of practices that allow developers to adapt quickly to changing requirements, and in video games requirements change daily.

At Midway we sporadically held scrum sessions, however it tended to be the first thing that fell off the table when the project was crunched for time. At Robomodo, scurm is a daily event, and an invaluable tool for keeping tasks on schedule and coordinating development between team members. Our engineering team is broken up into a series of small groups (each about 4-6 people), and each group has their own scrum meeting to go over all of the things that have been done, are being done, and still need to get done.

The design side of the company has less reliance on scrum. They still hold scrum-like meetings fairly regularly, although not daily, and we tend not to have elaborate design documents. In fact I'm not sure I've ever seen a real "Game Design Document" like you read about in books ever. Everywhere I've worked treats the game design as a living collection of ideas which is generally poorly documented.

Edit: I also thought I should add that after using scrum for several years I've realized there is no single "right" way to do scrum and have it benefit your project, but there are a lot of "wrong" ways in which scrum can hinder progress and be an all around pain in the ass. One of the things I saw at Midway was that scrum works really well if you can break your team into small groups, but trying to hold a Scrum meeting with 40 or 50 people is a total waste of time.

Chris
+2  A: 

Scrum doesn't do away with the GDD, but it does help the team move away from trying to determine everything up front to more of a mixed approach of documenting what is known and iterating more on what is not known before decisions are made.

Most of the time you don't want to start out with no idea of what the game is, iterate and eventually find out you've created an RPG. At the same time, you don't want to lock in decisions in areas you have no idea will be fun or not. I was working one time on a fantasy FPS game where the number of bullets-per-clip was decided in the design doc up front!!

Agile teams actually spend more time planning than traditionally managed teams. They just don't do it all up front.


Clinton Keith

Author & Coach

AgileGameDevelopment.com/blog.html

"Agile Game Development with Scrum", May 2010, Addison-Wesley

Clinton Keith
+1  A: 

Henrik Kniberg has used Scrum for the development of an online poker game and has made several presentation on this (also have a look at his Scrum for game development blog post):

Mike Cohn did a presentation on this topic too (this is a more generic presentation though):

Pascal Thivent
A: 

You could be intrested in this video about Managing a game development team

Franco
A: 

If you can't make sure that your graphics, 3D animations and code development be done by the Sprint, or you can't make these hold within a Sprint, then Scrum is no use. You can't have some strict time-boxed activities while depending on another department that doesn't respect the same timeframes.

Will Marcouiller