Experience with SVN vs. Team Foundation Server?

Question

A few months back my team switched our source control over to Subversion from Visual SourceSafe, and we haven't been happier. Recently I've been looking at Team Foundation Server, and at least on the surface, it seems very impressive. There is some great integration with Visual Studio, and lots of great tools for DBA's, testers, project managers, etc.

The most obvious difference between these two products is price. It's hard to beat Subversion (free). Team Foundation Server is quite expensive, so the extra features would really have to kick Subversion in the pants.

My question is: does anyone have practical experience with both? How do they compare, and is Team Foundation Server actually worth all the money?

Answer 1

I joined an Open Source project over at CodePlex, recently. They use TFS for their source control and I have to say that it's absolutely magnificent. I'm incredibly impressed with it, so far. I'm a huge fan of the IDE integration and how easy it is to branch and tag your code. Adding a solution to source control is something like two clicks, if you've already got everything configured properly.

Now. Is it worth the hefty price tag? I don't think so. The benefit to working on projects at CodePlex is it lets me get the experience with TFS that I need, in the event that I have to use it somewhere later. If you want good IDE integration for your Source Control, go grab VisualSVN. It's a much, much cheaper investment to get a lot of the same features.

Answer 2

@Atrophius, thanks for the input. We are currently using VisualSVN, which we've been very happy with for the most part.

Answer 3

I'd say it really depends on your needs. TFS is very nice, I've used it extensively, but it's very much aimed at the enterprise level, if you don't need all of those features it might not be necessary. If you do need those features (especially branching, scalability, work item tracking, etc.) they are worth every penny. Keep in mind that TFS includes bug tracking, work item tracking and other features beyond source control. If you have multiple branches or if you find yourself struggling against some lack of feature or other in Subversion then it might be a good idea to switch. But barring a good reason to switch you should probably avoid the cost and productivity hit of switching source control systems.

Answer 4

My recommendation, Team System isn't worth the money. I have used both and after using Team System, I tried to find a similar replacement. Basically what you are paying for is the integration and you could argue the customization support, but I have been able to create a Team System replacement with a little bit of time and integrating tools together.

I recently asked a question on what others have done to come up with a Team System alternative. I also list the development tools that I used to create the replacement. Hopefully with this answer and the question that I asked, you can find what works for you.

I am not a Team System hater, I just don't think it's worth the money. It is a very nice tool and if you don't mind paying the price for it, then by all means use it. It was the whole reason I created the replacement I came up with. I wanted the functionality Team System provided.

Answer 5

Having used both extensively, I think Wedge was on the money in noting "TFS includes bug tracking, work item tracking and other features beyond source control".

However, I can honestly say that SVN and TFS seem pretty equal in regards to scalability, and if anything SVN's source control has the edge on TFS due to its inherent simplicity.

If you want work-item and bug tracking alongside your source control then you either go for TFS or you go with SVN and some other, possibly free, tools such as bugzilla. While TFS does integrate both source control and work-item tracking together I honestly think MS should have given it away free as an apology for abusing so many developers with VSS over the years.

Answer 6

I'm surprised that someone who has used Subversion in the past would even have a want/need for TFS source control.

My experience with TFS (2005) has been pretty horrible. I've read all kinds of whitepapers & guidance as to how to properly structure your source for various development needs.

Our simple situation, where we have a trunk with mainline development, and integration branch where we integrate changes & deploy from, and a releases branch to keep track of past releases is very common and straightforward, but we are continually running into problems.

My main issues with TFS:

• Merging is a PAIN in comparison to subversion.
• There are unfixed bugs. I ran into one about renaming/merging that has been known for 2 years and a fix will never be released for 2005. We ended up moving our branch to a "broken" folder and we ignore it now.
• Putting read-only locks on your files is friction. Who says I need to edit batch files and build scripts inside of TFS so that it will "check it out" for me? Subversion knows which files changed. There are no readonly locks there.
• Speed. TFS is dog-slow over a WAN, and it's really only usable if I VPN into my work computer, which makes my dev experience really slow overall.
• Lack of good command-line and explorer integration. IDE integration is really nice for the day-to-day Get-Latest, adding files, and checking in, but when you need to do things across many projects, it's nice to have good tools at your disposal. And before someone jumps down my throat claiming tf.exe works well... it's not really a cmd line tool. For example, checking in code shouldn't pop up a modal dialog.

...the list goes on. I think even with all of the integration, there are free alternatives that are far superior.

Answer 7

Here is a open source version of VisualSVN called Ankhsvn. Its much better now that collabnet has taken it over.

Answer 8

TFS isn't just about Source Control. If you use the whole package that TFS offers, bug tracking, builds, reports, etc then TFS is a pretty solid choice (certainly better than Rational). TFS also integrates well with Active Directory.

Though if you are just talking about SCM, then I prefer SubVersion. I don't really like IDE integration. I also like SVN's convention of Trunk/Tags/Branches structure, and relative ease of switching between branches. Merging seemed easier in TFS though. Tortoise's UI beats TFS's hands down though, especially in regards to adding a file to a repo.

Answer 9

As Ubiguchi points out TFS is not a version control product. Buying TFS with the intention of only using it for Version Control would clearly be a waste of money. TFS is an integrated suite of tools to automate all aspects of Application Lifecycle Management (and pretty much geared to "The Enterprise".

Also per Ben S's post - I don't understand your comment about locks. Locks aren't required in TFS at all. Administrators can configure TFS to work like VSS (features demanded by some "unwise" customers) to "Get-Latest on Checkout" which I believe also does a check-out lock.

But through "normal" use of TFS a "check-out" prompts a user for the lock type - and the default should be "none". A user CAN select a check-out (or a check-in lock) - but it is not required. If you don't want locks, don't use them.

TFS does track which users have check-outs on the server for various both performance reasons (make get-latest faster) and project management (I like to see what developers have files checked out and how long their check-outs are).

I'm not real familiar with SVN (I've never used it) - so I can't comment that "mergeing is worse with TFS" - and haven't hit the merge bug Ben S reported - but I've had great success with branching and merging using TFS.

One use case I know TFS is still pretty weak at is for users who are regularly "offline". TFS is a "Server Product" that assumes the users are connected the majority of the time. The offline experience improved in the 2008 release (it was dismal in 2005) but still has a long way to go. If you have developers who need (or want) to often be disconnected from the network for long periods of time - you are likely better off with SVN.

Another feature to consider for SVN fans who are using TFS is the SVN Bridge a codeplex which allows users to use TortiseSVN to connect to TFS. I good friend and colleague of mine uses it extensively and loves it.

Also the comment about a lack of command line surprises me - the command line tools are extensive (although many require a seperate download of TFS Power Tools

I suspect Ben's comments are based on an eval of the 2005 release which was clearly a "Microsoft V1.0" product. The product is currently in 2.1 with Version 3 coming in the near future.

Answer 10

As others have pointed out, TFS gives you a lot more features then SVN does in the form of project management and such. Having used both, and worked with very large companies in implementing TFS, here's my two cents.

1) If you are using TFS 2005, upgrade to TFS 2008. You'll thank me. There are a ton of improvements in TFS 2008 that make it workable.

2) If you live in Visual Studio and you want the IDE integration, go with TFS. I've used SVN integration and almost always drop back to using TortoiseSVN.

3) If you like the idea of accounts being integrated with Windows Authentication, go with TFS. The manageability from that end is nice. There may be hooks for SVN - I'm not positive, but if you like the GUI driven management, TFS is hard to beat.

4) If you need to track metrics or have easier ways of implementing things like check-in policies, go with TFS.

5) If you have people who won't implement it if it isn't MSFT, go with TFS.

6) If you do more than just .NET (Java work, Eclipse, etc) go with SVN. Yes there are very good products out there (like Teamprise) that work well with TFS. But unless the other languages are a small part of your shop, just stick with SVN.

Outside of that, the SCM features of both are about equivalent. They both do branching and merging, the both do atomic check-ins, they both support renames and moves. I think for people just getting started with the branching and merging concept, having the branches be visible in Source Control Explorer is nice.

TFS really isn't that expensive ($1200 maybe?). Compared to SVN it is, perhaps. The integration to reporting services and SharePoint is nice, but again, if you aren't using that, then it doesn't matter.

What I'd say is to download the 180-day trial of TFS and give it a go. Run a trial side-by-side. I think you'll be happy no matter which way you go.

Answer 11

If all you need is source control, TFS is overkill. My previous employer had TFS, VSS, and Subversion in their enterprise. We didn't have Active Directory or Exchange Server 2003 in our enterprise, so we ended up creating separate users on the TFS server so developers could use it. We had the same sorts of problems with merging that Ben Schierman mentioned, along with other buggy behavior that pushed us toward Subversion.

Whether TFS is the right call for you will depend in part on your budget, the size of your development team, and the amount of time and personnel available for configuration/maintenance of your solution. If you want the additional issue tracking, work item, and project statistics capabilities that TFS provides, it may be worth your while to look at other alternatives. Products like JIRA (from Atlassian Systems) or Trac integrate well with Subversion and provide the sort of oversight a project or program manager might at a lower price.

In an ideal environment, with Active Directory, Exchange Server 2003 or higher, and dedicated staff for the repository, TFS is more likely to be a good choice.

Answer 12

I have used both at work and at home. They are both very cool in their own right. The only time i would recommend using TFS though is if you will be using more of the features than just the source control. If all you need is source control you cant go wrong with SVN and this is why.

1. VisualSVN Server That is a full SVN server with a nice plugin to manage it with. It lets you use windows authentication right through the UI. Easy.

2. Tortoise Its tortoise, enough said.

3. ankhsvn It is a great SCC plugin. For those that want full VS IDE integration the latest version is a full SCC plugin. So you now get full integration for free.

The above set up is 100% free and will get you through anything you need for source control.

Answer 13

TFS is great, if you don't need non-developers, to get to pm stuff.

Our helpdesk needs to be involved in the process, and it just wasn't cutting it.

Also the build management in tfs 2005 at least, is attrotious, and it can't even build vs 2008 slns. I really don't like that my source control choice, affects my deployment choices, this is why my team is not an svn shop.

Answer 14

I have used both SVN and TFS. Main advantage of using TFS is its tight integration with Visual Studio. Bug Tracking, Task Tracking will all go in one place. And the reports generated for these items will help the stake holders keep informed of the project status.

Answer 15

I am currently leading the effort to evaluate TFS at my company against the Rational Suite which is what we currently use. So far TFS 2008 is pwning clearcase + clearquest. The dev environment integration is where it really shines.

Answer 16

Here are the biggest differences between the two for me, and I've used both:

1) TFS is rather tightly coupled to the "Visual Studio way" of doing development. That's not to say that TFS is tightly coupled to the VS IDE, it means that TFS struggles to keep the familiar "check in"/"check out" paradigm of Visual SourceSafe, even when it really isn't an appropriate model anymore. Subversion's concept of "commit"/"update" is a lot more realistic when you have developers which might spend time disconnected from the network. TFS expects developers to always be connected to the server. That's a big minus. I personally find TFS to be less than transparent about how files are organized on the server and on your local disk because of the tight Visual Studio integration. Even TFS's bigger proponents concede that its connected check-in/check-out model is not a compelling option for developers who work disconnected. In a climate where people are starting to look at DVCS options like git over SVN, TFS's "check out" model seems a bit like a dinosaur.

2) Cost. Those who say that TFS isn't expensive are either probably very small shops, or are not in compliance with TFS's licensing terms. You need a Client Access License for darn near everything you do. Are you a manager who just manages the bugs? You need a ~$500 CAL. A business user who just wants to report on their issues? A $500 CAL. A developer? $500 (or vastly more for the "Team Suite" of Visual Studio). The non-workgroup edition of the server? $10,000. Of course, someone selling you a copy of TFS will tell you that work item tracking is free for additional users, but these additional users can only see the work items which they themselves create, and not the whole team's work items, which isn't too useful in an team-oriented, agile environment. All of this adds up when you have a mid-sized organization, and becomes tough to justify when so many best-of-breed products like SVN and CruiseControl.net's incremental cost is $0. (In fairness to TFS, though, I'm still waiting for a really good OSS issue tracker)

3) Project structure. In large teams with a smaller number of projects, TFS will probably work well. If you're a number of small, unconnected or loosely connected line-of-business apps in-house, TFS's structure can start to become overbearing. For one thing, it's not possible to define a taxonomy of projects themselves -- you can set up "Areas" within a project, but all issues and documents are tracked together within the basic context of a "project". Creating new "projects" is often time consuming, and is overkill for small efforts. Of course, SVN has nothing of the sort since it focuses only on SCM, but if you need good small-project flexibility, SVN and another issue tracking tool might be a better choice.

My opinion, for what it's worth:

• For large teams with big, well-budgeted projects, in a Microsoft shop where developers work almost exclusively within the IDE, TFS is the clear winner. TFS also wins when you need to centrally enforce policy with your projects.

• For a number of small teams, with many varied, smaller projects, or shops where cost is an issue, or teams who have developers who work disconnected from source control, go with SVN.

Answer 17

TFS is heinous. At this point I version control locally using SVN (w/ Live Mesh for backups) because I have some many issues with TFS. The main problem is TFS uses time stamps to record if you have the latest version, and stores these time stamps on the server. You can delete your local copy, get latest from TFS, and it will say all files are up to date. It's a silly system that gives you no guarantee that you have the correct version of files. This results in numerous annoyances:

• TFS needs to be informed when any file is edited, so you need to be connected to the server at all times.
• TFS get confused if you edit files outside of the IDE. Further it sets all files to readonly in NTFS.

While TFS supports merging, it's really a checkin/checkout system. If you edit a file you will often find that it is locked to other developers. There are ways around it, but the system is so convoluted you will always run into the issue. For instance, our developers found that they can get around all files being set to readonly in NTFS by checking out an entire solution, which sets an exclusive lock on all files. I did this a few times because subversion has the same syntax for checkout, which does not acquire a lock.

Finally Team Explorer (the client) is a whopping 400 MB, TFS server requires SharePoint and two days to install. The subversion one click installer is roughly 30 MB and it will install the server for you in under a minute. TFS has many features, but its foundation is so shaky you will never use or care about them. TFS is expensive in terms of the license, and in the time developers will waste ranting on stackoverflow instead of writing code :P

Answer 18

We're a VS.NET shop, and we implemented:

1. Bugzilla for issue tracking
2. SVN as a source code repository
3. VisualSVN for managing SVN on the server
4. TortoiseSVN (in Windows Explorer) and AhnkSVN (in Visual Studio) on the client
5. CruiseControl.NET for automated builds

Cost: $0 Benefits: Priceless

If you're a small team, or not ready to buy into the who TFS process, SVN and open source tools are the way to go.

Answer 19

In my opinion it depends on the situation and environment in which the project is done. If you have just a simple, small project, then SVN is great. As already some wrote, VisualSVN integrates nicely into Visual Studio s.t. you don't have to do the checkin/checkout over the native file system.

TFS is great for version control, but even better if you really use all of it's capabilities. In my eyes it really becomes worth if you use - for instance - the work items as your integrated repository for handling customer bug reports, new feature requests and for tracking the progress of your project by managing tasks and the according estimated time, used time and remaining time indications.
What is also really interesting is to use the feature of associating work items with source code checkins. See here for more infos about that.

Answer 20

I am working on a project with 5 people and we recently switched from SVN to TFS. The entire process has been a nightmare. We have auto generated code from XMLSpy, and TFS does not recognize files modified outside of VS2008. The TFS Power Tools can scan your checkout and fix this problem but it is a pain to have to remember to use these tools. Another problem we constantly run into is the default merging tool in TFS. It is by far the worst merging tool I have ever used. One would think that TFS would be able to handle basic solution merges but so far that has not been the case.

The built in user interface is very useful, but it also has flaws. If I checkout from my solution explorer, sometimes files are that have been added are not checked out. If I do it from the Team Source Control window it works perfectly. Why is that? I look forward to TFS in VS2010 as I have heard great things about it, and SVN is far from perfect, but I would have expected some of these features to function a little more intuitively.

Adam

Answer 21

We are a small team in the process of migrating from SVN to TFS2010. Our biggest reason to do so is the integration in Visual Studio and the WebAccess for bugtracking, that is now part of the TFS.

@Adam: Hopefully we will have a better experience. Can not tell yet...

Answer 22

My 10 cents:

TFS2005 was a joke - hard to install and even harder to maintain TFS2008 was stable - easier to installer, simpler maintenance, and automated builds that work. TFS2010 is EPIC! - installation is dog eassssyyy. Management is very easy; it's all a nicely laid out UI. Integrating it with VS2008 isn't so easy since you can't create projects in vs2008 you have to use vs2010 (which is stupid). TFS2010 also allows you to change the sharepoint project location instead of having those awful subfolders of TFS2008. TFS2010 also has tools like a burndown chart that is really useful for project management. It's like TFS2010 is for the whole production team including the clients! It still costs way too much though :(