views:

608

answers:

21
+12  A: 

You run the risk of seeming desperate. In addition, if you're volunteering and are not an employee, the company doesn't have the same level of liability protection against what you do than if you were an employee. (I'm not a lawyer, so I can't speak definitively on that last point, but I'm pretty sure about it.)

McWafflestix
+1. Dammit Wafflestix...
micahtan
Bwahaha! I think you've beat me to the draw in the past, so consider this payback... :-)
McWafflestix
I'd like to hear further opinion on the legal / liability aspects. We have used co-operative education programmers in the past (college students) on client work.
ScottE
@ScottE - For example, fixed-price bid where there will be an overrun. Unless your contract specifically states the possibility of intern/co-op, most contracts state that the work will be performed by fully-qualified individuals - some contracts even state a minimum level of experience, not re-farming the work to other entities, and some go as far as named resources. Having an overrun in a project staffed by lesser-qualified individuals gives your client room for questioning overruns outside of the normal scope/budget discussions.
micahtan
A: 

Why not, Go for it. In his younger years, my current boss interviewed for a robotics firm that said they didn't have the money to hire him. He convinced them to let him to the work for the project then they could decide if they wanted the output or not. If they wanted the work he had done then they would pay him. He worked for them for years even though they didn't have the money to hire him as an employee. I say go for it!

Bobby Cannon
Work for years without being paid? How did he survive? Was he eating apples in neighbour's harden and digging out marrons?
User
Maybe I wasn't clear. They always liked his work so they always paid him.
Bobby Cannon
+9  A: 

I suppose the alternative to this would be to volunteer on an open source project. That would improve you undoubtedly and look great on your cv/reusmé.

John Nolan
Is there much of an open source community for C#? Where would I look for one?Thanks!
EoRaptor013
I'm not expert but look at the Castle project. http://www.castleproject.org/community/getinvolved.html or look at codeplex.com
John Nolan
@EoRaptor013: I don't think there's anything on the scale of the Java OSS community just for the plain reason that many MS tools are not free, but you could look at source forge and similar places and filter by development language.
Uri
+4  A: 

It sounds like a good idea for your development but i think that you will slow down the development process because every new person in a team slows down the other persons.

Janusz
Yup, this is very "Mythical Man-Month".
McWafflestix
+3  A: 

I certainly don't want to sound desperate

This sounds desperate. On the other hand, it shows a good amount of initiative and willingness to prove your worth -- I've hired people who have shown less (unfortunately).

One reason why this might not go through (even if the company wants to give you a chance) is liability. Also, I'm not sure how I would feel if I were a client and I knew that my work was being given to somebody who didn't get hired outright, and wasn't currently being compensated. It seems like a pretty big risk for them to assume.

micahtan
A: 

I wouldn't recommend it unless they can offer you some form of compensation (doesn't have to be money) such as paid-for books or something of the like.

This also sets you up to being taken advantage of. From there on out you will likely not have the same bargaining chip. They either want you or they don't.

If you want to volunteer with something to learn it, get involved with an open source project or start something yourself. Use that project to point to other managers and do a show-and-tell type thing. Alternatively, find a non-profit entity which has a greater chance at offering other types of perks.

Nazadus
A: 

One think we don't think about much is that they might not have hired us simply because someone else was better. Many places are really looking for one person; they simply don't have the budget to hire two or three. So if 50 CV's have been sent to the job, and 8 are selected for interviewing, and you are the second best, you did better than 96% of the people and worse only than 2%, but still you don't get hired. Manchester United did a very good European Champions League tournament, but they didn't win it anyway. They were second.

If this was your case, volunteering in the hope that they hire you will probably be useless. They already have someone to do the job, and they won't settle for 2 people because they can't afford them or in other words, they just don't have enough profitable work to assign to them.

I wouldn't accept that kind of volunteering at my place if I was a manager. Workers should get their salary. But that's just me. (Note also that, at least in my country, it is illegal to have someone working without a contract, and there is a minimum salary fixed by law.)

Daniel Daranas
Actually, I've been at places that didn't hire people not even because someone else was better, but because the people just plain weren't good enough. I remember interviewing SDETs for about 6 months before finding our first viable candidate...
McWafflestix
Oh, I'm not so concerned with being second-best, or dead last. I'm concerned about shaking off the rust and honing my skills to a more competitive level.
EoRaptor013
@McWafflestix: These places typically aren't paying, advertising and/or networking well enough.
Daniel Daranas
@EoRaptor013: My point was that if they didn't hire you but someone else, then your strategy will be fruitless.
Daniel Daranas
@DanielDaranas: good point that they're not paying, advertising, or networking enough. As I recall, once my former workplace increased the compensation level, we did start getting better candidates.
McWafflestix
@McWafflestix: Thank you. Some people hold some kind of "this is not economy" fallacy. It happens too in other fields. You may hear "It's not a price problem. People just _won't_ buy flats anymore!" Of course if you are trying to sell your flat, you advertise it properly and nobody buys it, it _is_ a price problem, no matter how hard you try to close your eyes at it.
Daniel Daranas
+14  A: 

Unless this is a tiny business and the potential boss is the owner, hiring an employee as a "volunteer" in a for-profit company can be an HR nightmare. There are issues like liability, contract issues, etc. that are likely to turn the potential boss away from the gift of "free employment".

In addition, if they were interviewing for the position, then they will likely fill it with a paid employee. If it is a small place, there won't be a place for two of you. This isn't a football team with a depth chart :)

My advice: Cut your losses. Look elsewhere. If you succeed elsewhere, try to reapply to this place in a year or two. Some places will be willing to give you a second look.

If you want to volunteer and don't mind not getting paid, either find an unpaid internship (some places may still be looking), build your own thing, or volunteer for an open source project that uses those skills.

Uri
"In addition, if they were interviewing for the position, then they will likely fill it with a paid employee" Very good point.And knowing that, they could "use" you for four weeks,and let you go with no remorse or any kind of compensation (except for skill learning, maybe).
altermativ
@alternativ: I think that unless each project are tiny, most managers would prefer to have one person build a system (at the code of paying for an extra month), then have one developer (possibly less skilled since they didn't hire him) start and someone else finish. Not as much of an issue if there are many small projects, though.
Uri
+1 for understanding that fundamentally this is a business decision. Hard to take, perhaps, but it may be that they needed a coder who could cope /then/ and cound't wait. A better way to hone your skills might be to hunt down an open-source project looking for help.
Jeremy McGee
+5  A: 

As an alternative to volunteering, how about offering a lower salary: e.g. offer to work for whatever the 'minimum wage' is in your country, for some probationary period.

ChrisW
Agreed. Suggest a one week term or something similar.
p.campbell
Well, I didn't offer to work at minimum wage -- the unemployement check is better than that! But, I did offer to work at about 20% less in return for a three or six month review. He wasn't interested.
EoRaptor013
This isn't entirely programming-related, but think: if he hires you for 80% of the salary, that uses up his hiring budget, and he therefore can't hire anyone else, and so if he doesn't think that you are exactly who he wants then he has to say no. But if you offer to work for minimum wage, that's almost like "for free"; he can probably still hire someone else, and get you as well, with none of the various disadvantages that you and he both might incur from there being no money involved at all. He might be still unlikely to say "yes", but IMO it's a better suggestion than offering to volunteer.
ChrisW
@EoRaptor013: this comment really changes the context. i don't think you can make any other offers without sounding desperate and possibly a bit obsessed.
kajaco
A: 

I don't like the idea. Have you thought about asking to take the test again?

Nosredna
A: 

Look into open source development projects and see what you can find.

Maybe something on sourceforge?

PSU_Kardi
+2  A: 

I would say don't do it. Many companies just aren't equipped to handle a volunteer, and it will likely end in an awkward situation. There are a lot of legal and security issues, and it would probably more hassle than benefit for 3-4 weeks of your time when you have no familiarity with their code.

A better idea may be to really cram, call them back 4-6 weeks after the interview and tell them that you were disappointed with the results so you've done everything you could to improve your skills. They may give you another shot.

patros
Actually, he already told me he'd give me another shot. And I've been trying to get up to speed. Maybe I should just do a lot of really little projects, rather than try to get a small one half way done then time myself to the end.
EoRaptor013
Yes, you're probably better off doing a number of small projects similar to their coding test. Get used to writing up small sites with a few pages and a database on the backend. Get familiar with the tools and the debug/compile cycle. With a big project you're going to spend far too much time dealing with the overhead of big projects, which was not your weak spot.
patros
A: 

I would never volunteer somewhere but you may want to think about asking about taking a lower ranking position. If it was for a Senior position, see if a normal software engineer or even a Junior software engineer position is available.

Allen
Asked about that. They might have something coming up in a month or so. It is a senior developer. Interestingly, he's also trying to get budet approval for an architect's position, and said he's like me to try for that if I'm still on the market.
EoRaptor013
+2  A: 

Perhaps as a better option is to ask them if you can work on an internal project. There is less risk for them, and an opportunity for you to prove your skills.

We have piles of internal projects that we'd be happy to let someone work on if they asked.

Just make sure to agree to a scope so you don't get taken advantage of!

ScottE
Good points! I haven't had the conversation with him yet (and based on the responses here, I might not), but if I do, I'll be sure to specifiy some sort of internal project.
EoRaptor013
+1  A: 

Your situation sounds very similar to mine 5 years ago. I too found a great company. My experience matched their requirements quite well. I had an interview with them, and then sat down and started their little test project in ASP.NET which was supposed to take me an hour. I took a little more than that I think but I came up with a quality solution. Although I met the bare minimum experience requirements, in the owner eyes I was perhaps a little too young.

So he didn't call me back right away. I kept in touch by email though and asked him how interviews were going. And in the meantime I looked all over and couldn't find anything better than this place. Finally I sent him an email suggesting a pay rate that was about 50% below what I deserved. He returned my email right away and offered me a job. So I got my foot in the door.

Some might think it was a mistake to suggest a salary so low. But as it turned out, my instincts were right. This was a good company and it only took 3 months before I got my first raise. And it was a healthy raise. 6 months later I got another raise and suddenly my salary was fair.

I don't know if what I did will work for you, as their hiring situation may be a little different. But it certainly worked out for me.

Steve Wortham
Ya' know, that just may be the way to go. We seemed to hit it off so well, you'd think he'd try to find some flexibility. OTOH, I still have those pesky bills to pay!
EoRaptor013
Yeah, it makes sense to me.Employers are usually looking for two things in their employees:1.) a high level of motivation2.) a guru skill levelThey rarely find both in the same person. But suggesting a low pay rate is one way to demonstrate your level of motivation.
Steve Wortham
A: 

Don't do it.

The time can be better spent. Think of a hobby project and go with it. You're likely to learn more things in a month than in a boring business environment in a year.

User
A: 

This doesn't answer your question, but (if you can afford it) an alternative to consider (instead of volunteering at this place) is to study for a Microsoft certification/test:

  • The kind of test you say you were asked to do in the interview is about the same kind of topic that's covered in (and which you'd study for) the certification curriculum.

  • Having a certification might help to get your resume past HR so that you can get that interview.

ChrisW
+1  A: 

To be honest, I would cut my losses and move on. You'll find it less depressing in the long run.

It's like trying to chase after a girl when you've already blown it with her on your first date. No matter how hard you try, it won't feel like the first time again for either of you (you've already formed your first impressions)...and you can come across as needy and desperate, even if you're not.

You've had your opportunity, you've learned a lesson from it. Now direct your focus to whatever comes next.

Joe
Yeah, I remember those days... Fortunately, long past!
EoRaptor013
A: 

Something you might want to try, which would also have a CASH bonus, is to sign up for a project or two on contracting websites (Rentacoder.com, Getafreelancer.com, etc...). That way, you'll be getting back in the groove of programming, and earning cash while you're at it. Doing complete websites would not be a good idea since you are rusty, but you can do smaller jobs (fixing admin sections, cosmetic changes, etc...). You would not make a whole lot on these sites but it is good experience that you can put on your resume.

Also, I suggest looking for work on craigslist.com. There are many programming-related jobs available there (local and telecommute).

Best of luck!

Jon
+3  A: 

I believe that the best course of action is to practice, practice, and then practice more for the second chance that you were offered. You should take advantage of all that you have learned from the first attempt to devise a lesson plan till the day of your second practical test. From what you have provided I gathered the following topics that you need to work on:

  1. Database developmet: Stored Procedures and SQL
  2. ASP.Net with some ADO.Net (assuming they don't let you use the DataSet Designer or LINQ)
  3. Validation

What I would recommend is that you take each piece individually and work on honing your skills there. Once you feel comfortable with the components individually you can work on putting it all together. Lastly, you can work on coding within a time frame.

Without knowing the specifics of the practical test - like what tools you were limited to - I can't really provide a detailed plan, but that is something that you can do on your own. For example, if I take database development, I would assume that they have a number of tables created and you need to create stored procedures to insert, delete, update, and select data. I would practice creating a number of stored procedures with the database engine that they used in your practical test until you feel comfortable writing stored procedures quickly.

As for the volunteering question, I would hold off on that till you make your second attempt, because hopefully you won't need it. If after the second attempt you are not successful, and assuming that not finishing the code in 1 hour is the only thing that is stopping you from getting the job, I don't see any harm in asking the manager if there is anything that can at least get your foot in the door like volunteering or interning in the company.

Waleed Al-Balooshi
Thanks, I didn't mention the tools. It was VS 2005 and SQL Server Management Studio 2005. The two SP's he wanted were a save-user and get-user from the user, addresses, and address lookup tables.
EoRaptor013
Once you practice working with the independent components and are comfortable putting everything together you can try to work on coding fast. For example simple insert or select procedures should take less than a minute to create if you are using SQL Server management Studio and know SQL fairly well. This is assuming that they aren't asking you to produce high performance code that requires some tinkering to get right.
Waleed Al-Balooshi
+1  A: 

While there are numerous suggestions to work on an open source project, something I've not seen on here is to do volunteer work for a non-profit organization. Often small groups (churches, women's shelters, community theaters, etc.) will have work that they can't afford to pay for.

GreenMatt