Why is VB.net so verbose? Is it possible to trim down the fat?

Question

Do languages become more verbose as they mature? It feels like each new version of VB.net gains more syntax. Is it possible to trim down some fat like the keyword "Dim"? C# also feels like it is getting more syntax since version 1.

Answer 1

Doing so will only make your code harder to read.

Answer 2

Some people like that. I suspect things like Dim are left in for legacy reasons as much as anything else.

VB does have some nice short cuts though. For example the conversion routines. Eg CInt, CStr etc

Answer 3

That's the VB idiom. All languages have an idiom, and there are plenty that go for verbose and spelled-out. Thank your lucky stars you're not WRITING IN COBOL.

C# evolved out of the C-like languages, and in the C tradition brevity and terseness are valued, hence braces, && and ||, int not integer, case-sensitive lower-cased code. In the VB idiom, long self-explanatory keywords are good, terse keywords or cryptic symbols are bad, hence MustInherit, Dim blah as Integer and case insensitivity but with a tendency to Capitalise Your Keywords. Basically, stick with the idiom of the language you're using. If you use (or have to use) VB, then get used to the verbosity - it's intentional.

Answer 4

C# has certainly gained more syntax, but in a way which makes it less verbose.

Virtually every feature in C# 3.0 allows you to do more with less code.

Answer 5

VB.NET is great as it is, it brings more clarity in code.

For instance I love the fact how you can describe what your ending.

End while vs } End for vs } End if vs }

And really the verbosity isn't an issue while typing because of intellisence.

Answer 6

Yes I know what you mean, it can get a bit long winded, I find it becomes hard to read due to there being to too many keywords and making it hard to see the logic behind it all but hey some people like it.

I have just recently started writing all my stuff in C# and I must say I have come to like it a lot more since I just cut of VB and said right C# from now on, so if you are that worried your could always just switch.

Answer 7

Ever since I saw this...

lowercase keywords?

...I've been hoping it would get included in the language. It's amazing how much more readable it is Without All The Capitalized Keywords.

Answer 8

Then C# should get rid of ";" at the end of every fricking line :)

Default should be easy way to go such "New Line" instead of a ";" if you want exceptions such 2 statements in the same line then you need use a separator such as ":" or ";"

Answer 9

There's nothing wrong with verbosity, in fact it often can be a very good thing.

I assume you have meaningful variable names? Descriptive method names? Then why is there a problem with typing 'end if' instead of '}'. Its really not an issue at all, if anything, the terseness of C# is more of a problem trying to fit as much as possible into as few characters as possible - that means it harder to read, not easier.

Answer 10

for one thing that i don't like about VB is this

print("ByVal sender as object, ByVal e as EventArgs");

vs C#

object sender, Eventargs e

Answer 11

Verbosity and readability often go hand-in-hand. Lately I've come to fear the word "Elegant", because it generally translates into "Fun but less immediately readable"

Of course the person writing the code always says "Well it's MORE readable to me because it's shorter/more elegant.

that's crap. It's always easier to read something more explicit unless you have so much trouble reading that it takes you two hours to get through a Dick and Jane novel.

Note that I'm not talking about redundancies, just being explicit and spelling out your desires.

As a programmer it's much MUCH more fun to write elegant expressions, but I've found myself looking at the "elegance" of others and even my own "elegance" after a while and I'll change it to something more explicit, readable and reliable when I realize that although it was fun to write, I just spent more time reading/debugging it than it took to write in the first place.

On the other hand, DIM is just stupid :)

Answer 12

Okay... this feels embarrassing to admit, but I like the use of Dim in VB.NET. Yes, it's not serving any particular use that couldn't be inferred by the use of "As" later... but to me, there's something absolutely "beat you over the head" obvious about having declaration statements start with Dim. It means when someone's looking through the code, they don't even have to think about what those statements mean, even for a microsecond. Languages like C# have declarations that are obvious enough, but if you're just browsing by it you may have to consider it for a moment (even the most brief of moments).

There's something "extra obvious" about having a special keyword at the start of certain kinds of statements. In VB.NET, assignments start with "Dim" and calls to methods (can) start with "Call", giving them a kind of "left side uniformity" that If, For, and other constructs already have: you get the barest gist of what's going on with that line just by looking at the very start of it. Using these almost gives you the equivalent of a left-hand column that you can browse down extremely quickly and get the gist of what's going on on some kind of basic level ("Okay, we're declaring things here... we're calling to other things here...").

That might seem irrational or even silly to some people... but it does make the purpose of each statement explicit enough that it feels faster (at least to me) to browse through... especially when browsing through unfamiliar code written by others.

I guess, in the end, it comes down to "different strokes for different folks". I don't mind typing the extra three characters for that obviousness of purpose.

Answer 13

Use a pre-processor... and loose any hope to be read by anybody else (or yourself in some years, perhaps...).

I will answer what is often answered to people complaining that Lua is verbose: if you want a concise language, you know where to find it. There are tons of languages around, even if you restrict yourself to the CLR, so why complain about the one you chose? (I know, you might work on a project you didn't started, etc.).

That's not a flame or something. There are many languages for a reason. Some like them super-concise, close of mathematical notations, others like them (more or less) verbose, finding that more readable. There are languages for all tastes!

Answer 14

I'm slightly out of my depth here.

I like what everyone calls verbose. Does no one ever wonder my we don't have multiple nested parenthesis in any natural languages (e.g. English)? In fact nested parenthesis really need the convention of indentation to make then legible at all. In natural languages we use verbose clauses and multiple sentences, to avoid, or at least explain layering parenthesis.

Also in a certain sense I wouldn't say vb has much more syntax than c# at all. It doesn't really have many more lexical tokens in a certain block of code than would c# (Does it?). It has about the same syntax as c# it just has longer syntactical tokens, 'End Sub' instead of '}' for example. For most pieces of syntactical plumbing, the VB version will just be more typing (if you are sworn off intelisense), Also '}' is ambiguous compared to 'End Sub' since it also means 'End If' and whole load of other things. This doesn't make it more concise in a certain sense, There are still the same number of tokens in the code, but from a smaller subset of more curt token markers. But different tokens in C# have different meanings depending on the context, which requires you still to have that nested level in your mind as you read the code, in order to get, for example what kind of code block you are reading if you lose your place, even though the end of the code block could be in view you might have to look up to see the beginning of the code block. Even where this is not the case is && really better than AndAlso?

Dim I suppose is quite useless, an extra lexical token compared to c#, but I suppose at least it's consistent with linq, vb doesn't need the var command. I can't think of any other candidates for the chop. Maybe I don't have the imagination.

I'm sure someone is going to come along and tell me how wrong I am :) My best guess this is to do with personal preference anyway.

Answer 15

C# is not a user-friendly language and takes many MORE lines of code to accomplish the same task as VB.Net. Optional parameters, with/end with, etc. are not supported within C#. Even db connections take more code in C#. Star Wars fans love the C# though, as you get to talk like Yoda while you're programming.

My $0.02: VB.Net's intellisense features, shortcuts, logical readability, etc. make it a superior language.

Answer 16

OK I'm an old C programmer that came to .Net via C#, and Now I'm working in VB.Net I have to say at first I was appalled by the verbosity, but having gone back to C# for I bit, I have to admit I like VB.Net a bit more now.

I can write VB code that reads better and is less cryptic and it really doesn't take up much more space (especially if you put all your C# curly braces on their own line) Also the editor in Visual Studio takes care of most of the verbosity for me.

I like how "Dim X As List(Of SomeType)" reads as opposed to "List X"

Semi-colons are a nuisance now. Curly braces are annoying.
I do miss the square brackets for array refs, a little bit though.