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374

answers:

4

The BBC just released their JavaScript library, Glow. They rolled their own because the major libraries don't adequately support older browsers.

I'm wondering if I should take the time to learn the library. Do other large institutions have similar laws and rules regulating them that prevent them from using the mainstream libraries such as jQuery?

+2  A: 

Browser stats suggest it would be a waste of time. From my own relatively high-traffic public-facing website, older browsers (generation 1 firefox, netscape 5 or less, MSIE 5 or less) last month registered 40,000 hits out of 8.3 million, or 0.5%.

It also seems to me that any organization restricting you to some ancient browser might be the same ones that restrict you from browsing the BBC. None of the companies I deal with at work have restrictions for older browsers either, and we have a couple hundred clients ranging from small to fortune 500.

Thank goodness too - I can't imagine trying to make our application work for older browsers.

womp
Suppose that due to your use of a particular browser library, you exclude 1% of the market. Isn't that a huge number of people you're ignoring? While it might not influence a business, it could influence a goverernmental agency or a non-profit which has a mandate of public service. I'm wondering if those places might embrace glow, due to its sanction by the BBC.
Nosredna
Well, each company has their own policy about which browser needs to be supported. For BBC situation, they may have some vintage EU law that dictates which browser to support.
Adrian Godong
I guess I'm advocating the wait-and-see approach. We're getting to the point where most people are starting to consider dropping IE6 support rather than adding legacy support. Do you anticipate a need to deal with older browsers?
womp
Is it OK to ignore the experience of those 40,000 hits you had from old browsers? For some, sure. For others, maybe not. That's a lot of people, even if it's not a large percentage.
Nosredna
i second that. you have to stop compatibility somewhere. jquery (supporting that dreaded ie6) is good enough.
Schnalle
@womp, I'm wondering if there's a business opportunity to go after consulting work for large institutions that aren't using a JS library, is what I'm wondering. :-)
Nosredna
@george IV: it is!
Schnalle
Keep in mind 40,000 hits was probably less than 100 users ;)
womp
Sure, you might have also had 100 people who are blind using a screen reader, and laws may dictate at some point your technologies.
Nosredna
If the opportunity presents itself, of course it would be worthwhile. However, if you're looking to create opportunity by learning Glow and being ready to pounce on potential contracts, I doubt there will be much waiting.
womp
Agreed about laws. I think my point is that I personally feel it wouldn't be worth the time at this moment. But I have only my own background to draw upon :)
womp
There's a difference between saying "screw you" to people running older browsers and serving them a low-fi version of the site. I think it's acceptable to serve unsupported browsers and non-styled version which if you've done your job well should still be readable and useable. Even if you have a statutory requirement to make your site available to older browsers, you don't have a requirement to make it look the same as it does to the latest and greatest.
U62
A: 

The license is one of the most important things when considering a library. If it's GPL, it's not going into a product that will be sold eventually. But JavaScript libraries, like jQuery, often have more liberal licenses--jQuery is both GPL and MIT, so you can pick the one you want. Just as important is browser compatibility. When it comes to presenting a website, you need to support the browsers of your customers. Without them, you can't make any money.

What I would like to know is: are they serious? jQuery, et al., support such a huge percentage of browsers. Forgetting those 7 people who still use IE5.5 or Safari 1.3 is a good thing. They aren't numerous enough to generate enough revenue to pay for supporting those old browsers.

geowa4
You're talking about money and revenue. I'm talking about institutions which have responsibilities which cause them to make decisions based on considerations that go beyond the bottom line. What I'm wondering is how many institutions have looked at jQuery and had a similar reaction to the BBC's.
Nosredna
in business, the main rule is: what will get me the most money?
geowa4
Not all institutions are a business. Also, what get me the most money is getting work from non-profits and governments.
Nosredna
and thats why i called them stupid; they paid for something that only wasted money. to date, i have never heard of a nonprofit passing up a js library to make their own instead.
geowa4
...for browser compatibility reasons anyway.
geowa4
"and thats why i called them stupid; they paid for something that only wasted money. to date, i have never heard of a nonprofit passing up a js library to make their own instead." I haven't heard of it yet, either. However, there are plenty of sites that use JS but no library. I was wondering if some of them had turned down the libraries for a similar reason (lack of support for funky browsers).
Nosredna
@Nosredna: I know people that don't use any js library because they don't know how to use any.
Daniel Moura
+7  A: 

The BBC's primary duty is not to make money, instead, it is to serve the license-payer. In order to reach the widest possible audience, they have to support those older browsers. There's a large number of people in this world who couldn't be bothered—or don't even know how—to upgrade their web browsers from IE 5.old or whatever they're using now. The BBC can't just say "well too bad for you" to these people, even though private broadcasters can.

(Disclaimer: I'm from the US so this is mostly conjecture based on what I've learned about the BBC from other sources, e.g. Wikipedia. Please correct me in the comments if I'm wrong, or downvote me mercilessly. Either works.)

Paul Fisher
Many gov't entities and others have similar obligations. What I'm wondering is whether Glow is useful to the lot of them. You know, "If it's good enough for the BBC..." The library does look nice. I might just try out all the widgets and get a feel for the library.
Nosredna
You got it exactly right, Paul. There are many reasons Glow was created, but certainly a major requirement was that as a library it must always support all the browsers that are in the BBC Standards and Guidelines. As you said, that browser list isn't driven by commercial considerations nor was it just thrown together haphazardly, it is very carefully considered based on many factors and is always being adjusted based on evolving user statistics.
Michael Mathews
A: 

Why don't we just all close our eyes to old browsers and look forward?

Seriously if we keep giving people room not to upgrade they shall never updgrade. This is becoming more of an ethical issue than is conventional. As a developer you should thihnk hardly about whether you are helping by allowing your users, little comfort to their misery in old browser, or by advising them to upgrade. In my opinion the former cost less. So save the "business and money from the masses" talk for later.

Even Microsoft ignored its own browser(IE6) when developing parts of its new product website.

Obviously the BBC here in the UK are very much like people who preach change but at the same time prevent people from changing.

Enough with this compatibility and money talk!. Upgrade to something neat or get lost!

PS. IE6 lost 20% of its audience to firefox last month!

dr.stonyhills
"PS. IE6 lost 20% of its audience to firefox last month!" According to whom? What I've read is that IE7 users are upgrading to IE8, but IE6 users are staying with IE6.
Nosredna
You obviously never had to develop a site for a big company.. Because IE6 was de standard for a while intranet sites are built towards its kafka-ish rules. Now, the cost of updating all those intranet apps are keeping the company from updating their browsers. I'm guessing those are the main portion of IE6 users today. The only way of breaking out of this circle is convincing managers that the huge cost of upgrading browsers pays of in future development. Not an easy task.
borisCallens
You are wrong boris. The discussion here is about people building new apps with support for old technologies, and not a question of updating apps that where built a while back! Why will i have to be including support for IE5 and IE6 in an application i am building now, than simply asking user to upgrade their browser. I will like to see the managers who think the later is not an easy task.
dr.stonyhills
Youtube drops support for IE6!
dr.stonyhills