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11

Just about every Java project that I've seen either uses Maven or Ant. They are fine tools and I think just about any project can use them. But what ever happened to make? It's used for a variety of non-Java projects and can easily handle Java. Sure you have to download make.exe if you use Windows, but Ant and Maven also don't come with the JDK.

Is there some fundamental flaw with make when used with Java? Is it just because Ant and Maven are written in Java?

+6  A: 

Ant and later Maven were designed to solve some headaches caused by Make ( while creating new ones in the process ) It is just evolution.

...Soon thereafter, several open source Java projects realized that Ant could solve the problems they had with Makefiles....

From http://ant.apache.org/faq.html#history

Whether they solve anything or just create an extra format to learn is a subjective topic. The truth is that's pretty much the history of every new invention: The creator says it solves a lot of problems and the original users say those are virtues.

The main advantage it has, is the possibility to integrate with java.

I guess a similar history would be with rake for instance.

OscarRyz
That's not very specific. What headaches caused by make does Maven solve?
Laurence Gonsalves
@Gonsalves: Well that's one of the subjective aspects of every new technology, the creator of the alternative says it solves a lot of problems and the creators of the replaced technology say that those are not defects but virtues and so on. I think in this particular situation was the java integration and cross compilation out of the box
OscarRyz
[Refering to your edit of answer, not your most recent comment] That still doesn't explain what problems were solved, only that the creators ant claim that problems were solved... :-/My impression has been that Ant originally created to be a simpler alternative to Make. Over time, people found that there were things that it was missing and so they added features until Ant became just as complex as make, but with binutils built-in (make relies heavily on external tools like cp, rm, etc.), and of course there's the XML syntax.
Laurence Gonsalves
Yes, but when the best the creator of a new alternative can do is say "this solves problems the old one had" without actually saying what those problems are that's not so useful for those considering which option to use. Does Ant solve problems *I* have with make, or does it solve things I don't consider to be problems while introducing new problems for me?
Laurence Gonsalves
+11  A: 

The venerable make program handles separately compiled languages like C and C++ reasonably well. You compile a module, it uses #include to pull in the text of other include files, and writes a single object file as output. The compiler is very much a one-at-a-time system, with a separate linking step to bind the object files into an executable binary.

However, in Java, the compiler has to actually compile other classes that you import with import. Although it would be possible to write something that generated all the necessary dependencies from Java source code, so that make would build classes in the correct order one at a time, this still wouldn't handle cases such as circular dependencies.

The Java compiler can also be more efficient by caching the compiled results of other classes while compiling further classes that depend on the results of ones already compiled. This sort of automatic dependency evaluation is not really possible with make alone.

Greg Hewgill
This seems like more of a make versus javac answer than a make versus ant/maven answer. Based on your answer, why couldn't someone just use make + javac (giving javac an entire package or "module" at a time, so circular dependencies are hidden from make)? Would ant or maven provide any benefit over that approach?
Laurence Gonsalves
@Laurence: You could give javac an entire package at once, but then it will recompile *everything* in that package (since that's what you told it to do). It's true that the java compiler is pretty fast, but it's even faster if you let it determine which classes are the minimum needed to recompile after changing something.
Greg Hewgill
Are you referring to telling javac to only compile your "main" class, and then having it automatically build the stuff it depends on? Last I checked (admittedly, probably in 1.4) that was horribly unreliable. -Xdepend was slightly better (but slower, and still broken), and they removed that flag in 1.3.
Laurence Gonsalves
Also, this still doesn't explain why I'd use Ant or Maven rather than just straight javac...
Laurence Gonsalves
A: 

Ant and Maven approach the build dependency graph and the management of it from a more 'modern' view... But as Oscar says, they created their own problems while attempting to address the old problems with make.

John Weldon
+1  A: 

One of the major issues solved by Maven (and Ivy-enabled Ant setups) over make is automated dependency resolution and downloading of your dependency jars.

Ophidian
+9  A: 

The question is based on an incorrect assumption: a non-trivial number of developers do use make. See Java Build Tools: Ant vs. Maven. As for why a developer wouldn't use make: many developers either have never used make, or used it and hated it with a fire that burns hotter than a thousand suns. As such, they use alternative tools.

Hank Gay
We use it, and the fire is hotter than a thousand and one suns.
reccles
@reccles: Is it just hatred toward build engineering or make itself? How would Ant, Maven, or something else would be better (ie is make a bad tool for its class)?
User1
@User1 `make` has a lot of "features" that may have made sense when it was written, but now are more like bugs, e.g., you must use a TAB character, not spaces, in certain places. That sort of thing probably doesn't bother people who are really experienced in `make`, but it drives the rest of us nuts.
Hank Gay
@HankGuy: let your editor worry about that detail. If your editor cannot handle tab <-> space settings correctly, get a new editor and you will be much happier. But you are right in saying that many features are outdated like the way dynamic dependencies are handled (`make depend` anyone?)
D.Shawley
@D.Shawley I quite sensibly have my editor(s) configured to insert spaces when I hit the tab key, except that causes problems when I'm editing `Makefile`. If I worked with `make` often enough, I'm sure I would track down an extension/mode/what-have-you that was dedicated to editing `make` files, but why inflict that on myself if I don't have to? Besides, it was just an example of the oddities that make people want to avoid it unless they have long experience with it.
Hank Gay
@User1 It's the scale of the project we are building. We have a full time staff member maintaining the make files and build dependencies. Having used maven I found it to be more manageable. Now having said that maven wasn't perfect either. Nothing is more infuriating than trying to figure out what XML setting are needed to do a build that is slightly different then the prescribed setup.
reccles
@reccles I agree 100% about the difficulties of doing things other than the default in Maven. If I were starting a Java project from scratch, I'd definitely be looking at the newer build tools like Gant, Rake, Ivy, etc. because none of the older tools has overwhelmed me with awesomeness, to say the least.
Hank Gay
+8  A: 

All the other answers about the technical merits of each are true. Ant and Maven may be better suited to Java than make, or as Hank Gay points out, they may not :)

However, you asked if it matters that Ant and Maven are written in Java. Although on StackOverflow we don't consider such thoughts (closed! not-programming-related! etc.), OF COURSE THAT'S PART OF THE THING. On rails we use Rake, C dudes use make, and in Java we use Ant and Maven. While it's true that the Ant or Maven developers will look after the Java developer perhaps better than others, there's also another question: what do you write Ant tasks in? Java. If you're a Java developer, that's an easy fit.

So yeah, part of it is to use tools written in the language you are tooling.

Yar
Ant also arose at a time when the Java community was infatuated with XML. (Which isn't to say XML doesn't have a place.)
Laurence Gonsalves
@Laurence Gonsalves, that is *so* true. But please, we don't talk about fads here on SO :) I was teaching Java dev at the time, and EVERYTHING was XML. Now it's still XML, but no one cares.
Yar
The tooling comment is an interesting one. `make` comes from a UNIX background so the tooling is done by writing useful compact utilities and pipelining them together. This is why most of the stitching is done using shell commands.
D.Shawley
@D. Shawley, all true regarding `make` and small Unix utils. GIT is a child of that process too. On a personal note, I wouldn't say it's not better. But it's a huge paradigm shift for Java programmers. Ant is much more consonant with Java ways-of-thinking.
Yar
+15  A: 

The fundamental issue with Make and Java is that Make works on the premise that you have specify a dependency, and then a rule to resolve that dependency.

With basic C, that typically "to convert a main.c file to a main.o file, run "cc main.c".

You can do that in java, but you quickly learn something.

Mostly that the javac compiler is slow to start up.

The difference between:

javac Main.java
javac This.java
javac That.java
javac Other.java

and

javac Main.java This.java That.java Other.java

is night and day.

Exacerbate that with hundreds of classes, and it just becomes untenable.

Then you combine that with the fact that java tends to be organized as groups of files in directories, vs C and others which tend towards a flatter structure. Make doesn't have much direct support to working with hierarchies of files.

Make also isn't very good at determining what files are out of date, at a collection level.

With Ant, it will go through and sum up all of the files that are out of date, and then compile them in one go. Make will simply call the java compiler on each individual compiler. Having make NOT do this requires enough external tooling to really show that Make is not quite up to the task.

That's why alternatives like Ant and Maven rose up.

Will Hartung
So in order to use make in a huge Java project, it would be necessary to maintain a list of all changed .java files and then call javac at the end? That sounds less than ideal to me. That's the best answer that I've seen so far.
User1
A: 

I've never used GNU Make for Java projects, but I used to use jmk. Sadly it hasn't been updated since 2002.

It had some Java-specific functionality but was small enough to include in your source tarball without significantly increasing its size.

Nowadays I just assume any Java developer I share code with has Ant installed.

finnw
A: 

One big reason is that both Ant and Maven (and most java targeted SCM, CI and IDE tools) are written in java by/for java developers. This makes it simpler to integrate into your development environment and allows other tools such as the IDE and CI servers to integrate portions of the ant/maven libraries within the build/deployment infrastructure.

Chris Nava
+2  A: 

Make scripts tend to be inherently platform dependent. Java is supposed to be platform independent. Therefore having a build system that only works on one platform for a multi-platform sourcebase is kindof a problem.

Brian Fox
A: 

Once upon a time I worked on a Java project that used gmake. My recollection is hazy but IIRC we had a hard time dealing with the package directory structure that javac expects. I also remember that building JAR files was a hassle unless you had something trivial.