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832

answers:

12

The free open-source software movement has been beneficial to most of the software development community. We have tons of libraries and applications at our fingertips free of cost. But where do you draw the line? Or do you?

If Developer A creates Application A, yet you know you could create a similar application and distribute it as open-source, do you feel guilty? What if Application A is the primary means of income for his/her family?

Bottom Line: Where do you draw the line between creating open-source applications and possibly taking revenue away from the independent developer?

I am not expecting, nor conveying a stance in either direction. Just looking for the personal views of the SO community (as stated in onebyone's reply).

+16  A: 

"If Developer A creates Application A, yet you know you could create a similar application and distribute it as open-source, do you feel guilty?"

If Developer B creates a similar application and markets it using the proceeds to feed his family.

What's the difference? IN both cases it is competition, are you suggesting that competition is unethical, guilt producing behavior? If so what makes competition unethical?

kloucks
"what makes competition unethical" - waste, destruction of fellow-feeling among competitors, and the distorting effects of "unfair" advantages such as capital, social status, nepotism, race, gender, etc. That's what Karl Marx said, but ofc his theories have taken a kicking the last 20 years or so.
Steve Jessop
@onebyone.livejournal.com Marxism has over 100 years to prove your assertions and has failed on every count. Whenever it is tried it creates economies of scarcity that always spiral downward, large quantities of disposable(and often disposed of) people and unaccountable oligarchies.
kloucks
+4  A: 

It's free market competition, isn't it? What if Microsoft created such an application, and released it for free? (Yes, I'm thinking of Netscape.) If you don't do it, someone else will fill the gap, if it's a big enough itch worth scratching.

Chris Jester-Young
Ah, the old "if it's legal then it's moral, because if I don't do it someone else will" argument. Works in court: not so well in confession ;-)
Steve Jessop
It's legal *and* moral to compete if you believe you can do it better.
Just Some Guy
+1  A: 

You shouldn't care, unless you are doing something illegal.

Everyone is free to choose licensing terms of his own work, and take responsibility.

But, remember, the same might happen to you ;) Someone might create free copy of you payware app.

I don't mind software being free, but I wish there were free cars,lunch, real estates, ...

Dev er dev
Software is able to be free because it's an infinite good (i.e., it has a zero marginal cost of production). That's not going to happen with cars, food or property unfortunately until we get the Star Trek replicators invented.
paxdiablo
+9  A: 

The issue has never come up for me, but if you can write Application A++ which is a replacement for Application A, and which you're willing to distribute at a lower price than Application A (e.g. free), then the classic economic response is that the developer of A doesn't deserve to get money for it any more. They can either improve their product or do something else, not get paid for an obsolete product.

If Application A contains original ideas from that developer which happen not to have been patented, but which you believe could or should be patentable, then you might feel a moral obligation to avoid copying them. Doing so would be illegal if they were GiantMegaCorp, and if you feel that it's just for GiantMegaCorp to be protected from "theft" of intellectual "property", then you might feel it unjust that the indie developer isn't protected just because they can't afford recourse to the law. Of course there's a risk that if you don't someone else will, but the same's true of drug dealers and you don't deal drugs (I expect).

Snigger quotes around "theft" and "property" are there because a lot of people who support FOSS are in any case opposed to software patents, or to any kind of IP for software, or to any kind of IP at all. So it may be a non-issue: if someone is feeding their family by doing something you believe to be wrong (selling software, dealing crack to 8-year-olds, whatever), then you still want them to stop, don't you? Either you believe in social security (or personal charity), or else you believe that economically unproductive people and their families should die of starvation. Either way, developer A failing to earn is not an intractable problem, and that's even assuming they can't find an alternative to developing Application A. Maybe they'll go do something more worthwhile.

I refuse to say what my position is, though. Firstly I'm not sure it's consistent, and second I'd rather just offer something to think about on either side.

Steve Jessop
"Either you believe in social security ... or else you believe that economically unproductive people and their families should die of starvation." I hope nobody believes the latter - while it is true there is only so much you personally, or society, can do to help those unproductive people - in most cases it is a temporary lapse of productivity. If they have the right support behind them, they can (and usually will) overcome that. Capitalism is all well and good, and I'm about as anti-socialist and anti-government as you get, but unrestricted capitalism is too cold to apply to human beings...
Eloff
I don't understand anti-government types. Government is us. But this is not the place for such a debate.
TRiG
+3  A: 

You seem to be (erroneously in my opinion) equating open source with free cost. You can open source your app and still rely on copyright law and licensing to restrict its use to those that pay.

In any event, I don't see this as any different from creating a competitive product and selling it - you're still affecting A's livelihood.

I suppose if you vindictively set out to ruin A, that's morally dubious but I don't think competing is a problem.

paxdiablo
"I suppose if you vindictively set out to ruin A, that's morally dubious but I don't think competing is a problem." vindictively would be a bit strong, however in many cases there is no direct competition and therefore it would likely have an impact of the sales of the original application.
JTA
Since he's talking about the open-source "movement", I chose to assume that when he said "open source" he really meant FOSS. So I'd say your first paragraph highlights a flaw in his terminology, but not in his reasoning.
Steve Jessop
+3  A: 

Competition is good.

Toby Allen
Yes, competition IS good, but I dont feel that answers the question.
JTA
+5  A: 

"you know you could create a similar application and distribute it as open-source, do you feel guilty?"

I sounds like your question is based on an implicit claim that an open-source product will immediately displace a product that has proprietary source AND support.

Do you have any evidence that anyone offering support for a product has been put out of business by an open source product which has no support? I'd like the example as a reference, since it seems rare, to me.

I have examples like Red Hat inc. that are offering support for open source products and making money offering support for open source. They aren't displaced by open source, they're exploiting it.

I have examples like Microsoft inc. that offer dreadful products, yet see little or no impact from open source competitive products. Open Office does not seem to be leading to massive layoffs in Redmond.

I think your premise -- open source always displaces proprietary source -- could be flawed.

S.Lott
"implicit claim that an open-source product will immediately displace a product that has proprietary source AND support."I agree 100%
JTA
I think MS believe that they would have made more server sales if not for linux. But obviously you're quite correct that this has hardly driven them out of business. I suspect it's possible to find for instance a compiler vendor which gave up when GCC finally rolled into their part of town.
Steve Jessop
+6  A: 

Is Linus Torvalds guilty for taking money away from Bill Gates? No, he just created his own solution to the same problem.

Many like his solution, mainly those who don't like to pay for Windows, but (still) many more keep paying for Windows (let's disconsider piracy, which is much more unethical, just for the sake of this argument) because (a) they are used to it, and (b) paid software usually is associated with security, in which the company that bought it can sue the vendor if it causes damages.

Your App B will always be somewhat different from Application A, and price is just one of the differences.

If it's too similar, on the other hand, then we're talking plagiarism and not competition.

schonarth
Just an aside: "the company that bought it can sue the vendor if it causes damages." I don't think so - have you read any EULAs lately?
Piskvor
Doesn't matter about the EULA's, managers think they have that recourse, so they feel better about software with a big company behind it. Just like in politics, its not the facts that count, it's only what people believe are the facts that counts.
Eloff
+3  A: 

You don't. It's not your place to worry about taking money away from a closed-source program. If the your program is making life difficult for Developer A, then he needs to get off his butt and improve his product so it becomes desirable.

One of the problems with the current legal arena is the belief that infringing on a business plan is illegal. It's not; it's simply competition. You either evolve and adapt or you die.

Look at Microsoft. After Netscape was killed off, MS rested on its laurels with Internet Explorer. It took Firefox to come along and get some significant market share before MS decided to improve IE.

Developer A is perfectly able to open-source his application and make money in an alternative fashion, the most common being pay-for-support. But he could also sell T-shirts with the application's logo, provide a manual for a small donation, etc. Or he can keep it closed-source and hope that people are willing to pay for the feature-set, convenience, or whatever.

Just because someone thinks the only way to make money is by selling closed-source programs doesn't mean everyone has to agree. Personally, if I ever decide to try and make money with my programs, I will provide the source code for free but charge for binaries. That way "lazy" people can pay me for my services while savvy people can built from source. It's a similar idea for Trolltech's license agreements for Qt.

crystalattice
A: 

I agree is most of the answers. Yes, it is legal, and yes, open-source "copies" will be made. But do you personally have any moral objection to creating copies of such software?

I don't consider any answers to be right or wrong.

JTA
Sorry, I think the question is ill-posed. "copy" has a negative slant. You will have "alternative versions" that are Open Source, not "copies".
Remo.D
Good point, although a bit late now :-)
JTA
+2  A: 

If a company invests R&D effort in solving a user's problem in a very specific way, then blatantly copying that solution is, in my book, unethical. Providing your own solution to the same problem isn't. Of course, some features will be common, but you should provide some fresh ideas, not just a direct clone.

As an aside, people here seem to confuse law and ethics. In my book, whether that solution has been patented or not, and whether the company does decide (or can afford) to sue the open source competitor is irrelevant to ethics. And vice versa - many companies can probably afford to sue open-source projects without any reasonable reasons just to shut them out, but that doesn't make it ethical.

Kena
Exactly the kind of statement I was looking for. The question wasnt related to lawful practices.
JTA
However, the answers you got saying "it's not illegal, so do it" are informative, because what that tells you is that some people do base their ethics on little more than the law. This is valuable information should you ever deal with them professionally ;-)
Steve Jessop
You misunderstand. They're saying that they see no ethical problem with an action, and since there's no law that would otherwise prevent you from acting that way, then it's OK.
Just Some Guy
Well, when comments are made like "you shouldn't care unless you are doing something illegal", it's difficult to judge whether that sentiment is specific just to the question asked, or is perhaps more general on the part of the speaker. I'd take as a warning sign the speaker may be amoral...
Steve Jessop
I don't mean to say that anyone who argues that it's OK is amoral. Some have explained why they feel it is moral, so that's fine. Just that anyone who argues that the only conceivable barrier is illegality, either is amoral or has neglected to show their working as to moral justification.
Steve Jessop
+2  A: 

I guess I don't understand the question, specifically why you're treating software as a special case. Look at the number of movies with similar plot lines, or books that mirror others, or similar cars, or comparable songs. Why would competition between software products be immoral when competition in any other venue is generally seen as a good thing?

Developer A does not have a natural right to earn income off Application A. While he may want to, that doesn't automatically make it the end result. Look at it from another angle: if Application A was so easily reproducible that someone else could recreate it and give it away for free, perhaps Application A was only commercially viable by a temporary inefficiency in the market. When the FOSS version comes along and addresses that efficiency, the market as a whole benefits because then Developer A's customers can invest that money more effectively to solve other problems.

Finally, if you're drawing the distinction purely on the fact that the FOSS alternative is distributed free of charge, then I'd ask you consider whether it's moral for kids to organize garage bands, or for an author to give away copies of his book, or for me to write a love letter to my wife instead of buying a card written by someone with the intent of feeding his family.

Just Some Guy
Excellent point, but do you think it would be good for the industry/jobs/income of the auto industry if another manufacturer had enough clout from other endeavors that they could produce free cars?
JTA
It would be bad for that segment but good for the economy in general because it would free resources. However, the "word processor industry" is pretty well locked up at this point with both proprietary and FOSS major players. It doesn't have to be either/all.
Just Some Guy
For example, suppose that some company with deep cash reserves were to *temporarily* offer free cars as a loss leader until they had a monopoly. That does not make the economy more efficient (it forces new competitors to restart from scratch), neither is it IMO moral nor should society accept it.
Steve Jessop