job offer dilemma

Question

Hi,

I started a new Java job just over a month ago and it hasn't been going well. The main problems are:

• Quality of source code is disgraceful
• No automated build/tests
• There is resistance to change/improvement and a severe case of "not invented here"
• All the experienced team members work in a remote office, which makes knowledge transfer to the people working in my office difficult

In fact the only good thing about the job is the salary and benefits. I was recently made an offer from one of the companies I interviewed with before starting my current job. The people and technologies there seem top-drawer. By way of contrast, at my current company they write web apps by programming directly to the Servlet API, whereas at the other company they use Grails. The downside is that taking a job at the other company would require me to take a 25% drop in vacation time, and a drop in salary of at least 15%.

I could live quite comfortably on the reduced salary under my current circumstances, but those could change (e.g. kids, interest rates). If I were to leave my current company after such a short time it's highly unlikely they would ever employ me again, but I live in a city where there's a limited number of places I can work, so it's a bridge I'm reluctant to burn. Not because I might some day want to return to this project, but they're a big company and probably have (or will have) other teams that are a better fit with what I'm looking for.

So my current job is offering great benefits and salary, steady employment, but little opportunity for learning and job satisfaction. The other job is offering cool technology, much reduced benefits, and stability (they're a startup).

Any advice regarding what I should do would be much appreciated!

Update: THe majority of respondents advised staying put. I decided to take their advice, and told the "good" company I would be refusing their offer due to the reduction in salary/vacation. They then increased the salary on offer (to a level I inidicated I would accept), and I've decided to accept their offer.

Answer 1

I think I worked at that company!

What I did back then was to work on a few horrible projects while quietly checking for something else. When it became unbearable and I had a lot of money stashed I made the move.

Answer 2

Really you should follow your heart on this one...

Will a little better salary be worth wasting your life over if you end up working at this company for 30 years?

This is a tough decision. People say do what makes you happy and I agree with that sentiment.

Answer 3

Personally I would rather be making a slightly lower wage and enjoy my job rather than making a better wage and hating it. As with all start ups there is potential, and if the company grows you can more than likely expect your salary will too if you are a key player in it's growth.

Answer 4

It depends on the way you look at it. Your situation provides lots of opportunity and challenges.

The fundamental rule to follow is:

Leave the code in a better place than you found.

You can take this as a challenge and see where it goes...

Answer 5

I personally go into every job committed to at least a year, no matter what (part of that is strategy for not burning bridges, but I also think it's an ethical matter - if you promise someone you will work for them, then you should). I think you should bide your time and save some money (as much as you can - if you're not married, there's no reason you couldn't have tens of thousands of $$ saved in a years' time). In that year, milk your network for new contacts and passively look for something better.

At the end of the year, you'll have some valuable experience, even if painful; you'll probably have a couple of opportunities in hand that you could leave for. If not, you'll have the money to start your own gig, if you want. Also, you never know if you'll come to love your job and decide to stay.

Patience.

Answer 6

I think you already know what you want to do. Just do it.

Answer 7

I suspect you already know the answer to your own question and you need help justifying your decision to youself (not likely) or your spouse.

If your job is killing your passion for what you do, leave. It is easier to find a new job than it is to re-stoke a passion. If you really can't handle the cut in vacation time, try negotiating - or keep looking.

Answer 8

My opinion is that if you can afford maintaining your living standards with the lower salary, then take the job offer at the better company.

It sounds to me that there is a lot more to learn at the company giving you the offer. Moreover you will look forward to going to work in the morning because you care about the quality of your work. Or else you would not be making this question. :)

You are worried about burning the wrong bridges. Would you go back to the current company after experiencing the way they work?

Answer 9

Adding to what Ben Collins already said I would also turn to one of the points in the Pragmatic Programmer:

• Be a Catalyst for Change

You haven't been there that long. Stay a little while, prove yourself and be a catalyst for change. Help them make things better and you will get allot of satisfaction in spearheading the changes and you will be happier in your work.

Edit: Also, if you explain to the company that made the second offer that you feel that you owe these people something and you can't accept their offer at this time it could very likely pay off in the long run. Reason being, it's as they say in relationships, if they'll do it with you they will do it to you. If you prove you are a man of your word then that could pay off later when you might look again and you either look there or someone from there has moved somewhere else and might remember you.

Anyway, I say give it a year or so.

Answer 10

Since you've only been there a month it might be too soon to make a decision for sure, but I would take it as an opportunity to leave my mark on a company. They may be resistant to change but that doesn't mean they won't listen to you. If you provide a reasonable argument for automated/nightly builds, and press on it, then they might let you try it. Then when they see how nice it is they'll be much more open to anything else you suggest.

That being said, if you've been there a while longer, gave it a fair shot, and it still hasn't improved, then start looking.

Answer 11

This may be a tough suggestion, but bring up the offer to your current employer. Explain why you find the other offer enticing, and what kinds of changes you would like to see to make your current job equally enticing (don't shoot the moon. what practical changes could take place, and of what practical time-frame)

Don't bring up the difference in pay. For one thing, it's not really that large a difference in the first place. For another, a raise in pay to keep you (with no other considerations) might be a reason to leave.

Explain that you would really like to keep the bird in the hand rather than go after the two in the bush (after all, you haven't been working for that other company for a few months, it might not really be as rosy as it seems.)

Answer 12

I have to be honest with you.

Follow my advice:

QUIT IMMEDIATELY

_{Please send me an e-mail with the details of the position you're leaving. I would love to take your job!!!! I have exactly the same conditions except the pay is also miserable.}

Answer 13

I think that jobs are like dating: don't be somebody's second choice. If they didn't offer you the job the first time you interviewed, don't rush back to them when something better popped up.

Work for a year (that would be reasonable), save money. Make a difference in the organization. Write that difference in your CV. Apply for other jobs including the place that wanted you for less. If there are very few organizations in town, doing well in one will increase your worth in the view of the others.

Answer 14

What kind of employee contract are you on? Often employee contracts have a cooling off period for the first three months that allows either employer or employee to leave with a weeks notice. This cooling off period can be a time in which you can more gracefully leave.

Also, if the other company is ok to wait you could hold off a week and during that time push harder at making changes. If the proposed changes are met with resistance it might then be obvious to your employer that you are looking for something different. Leaving will be less like burning bridges and more like finding something with a good fit.

Answer 15

A lot of companies have horrible source code , I maintain legacy code which is totally crap (but I enjoy the challenge it brings). I also happen to work with programmers from 3 different countries daily. These are things that are common in our industry.

Depending on your age/circumstances I would say do what you are more passionate about. When you are 70 and look back at your career/life would you be glad you took the job with more money or the more interesting job? For me it would be the second one ;)

Answer 16

I have been in a similar situation. A bad job (not friendly team, questions being left unanswered, low code quality, not much place for improvement, the new guy not being listened to, ...)

I was so demotivated by the job that I burned the bridges, even without an other job waiting for me.

I stayed there only for 4½ months.

If you think that you might like to work there in the future, and are considering leaving to somewhere else, you could talk to the human resources department, or your manager. They chose to hire you, because you had some qualifications, a nice personality (evaluated through the interview).

They might have other positions opened on other projects and good, qualified employees might sometimes be hard to come by. Also, by doing so, if you explain why you would leave, but before you make the move, this could give you better chances of being hired later.

There is one thing you must consider before thinking about anything else:
Having a job you hate is not going to make you happy.

Sure, you could stay for a year, gathering cash, but during this time you could hit depression, sicknesses and all that kind on stuff. Is it worth it ?

I usually tend to be fair with employers. Whenever I receive offers from other places, if I meet them in an interview, I usually tell my employer (In the past years, I have been mostly working by contracts, which could or not be renewed, so it might not always be the best thing to do).

Answer 17

In this climate I'd have to say it would be unwise to leave a safe position in a financially stable company for a company which is unproven (a start up), unless you have no other option.

Unless you are in a highly toxic environment (politics, etc) which necessitates a job change, there are other ways to pick up new technology and skills - try to hit your employer for Professional Development (conferences, tech days etc) perhaps.

Answer 18

This makes me think of Paul Graham's example of glider in this essay .

If you let yourself get far downwind of good places to land, your options narrow uncomfortably. As a rule you want to stay upwind. So I propose that as a replacement for "don't give up on your dreams." Stay upwind.

Do you think you are staying upwind by working at your current job . That said working on new technologies is exciting for only first few months, is it worth the hassle ?

Answer 19

Paying closer attention to the details of what you said: I wouldn't jump ship for a startup in this economy. Hang on, brother! My initial response was to dump that loser of an environment you are in now, but really, life ain't so bad. You have a golden opportunity there in more ways than you realize. You sound like an intelligent, self-directed guy. Use that and lead your group out of the wilderness. "Speak truth to power!" (ahem) And fight the good fight.

If you can manage to help these guys get their heads right, that is a huge bit of great experience. Time to be a company man, and make your own opportunities there. Really, if they are that jacked-up, this is a great, albeit different, opportunity.

But really, I'm not sure burning any bridge at this point in time is a good idea.

Answer 20

If I had followed my first instinct upon seeing some of the code I inherited (Classic ASP and VB6 of the sort that gave VB a bad name), I would have run screaming. I started as a contractor, so there wouldn't have been any bridge-burning involved, but it's in my nature to never quit.

Now, eighteen-odd months later, the company has hired me on full-time, I'm learning a new industry, and I have lots of opportunities to re-design things "the right way." It's definitely grown into an exciting and interesting job, and has taken my coding skills in new directions.

In short, stick it out; a month is not enough time to know the place. Also, it doesn't usually look good on a resumé: "So, why'd you leave Billy Bob's after only one month?"

As is mentioned above, be a catalyst for change; look for any opportunities to improve the shop or yourself. Learn what you can. Give it a year, then re-evaluate things.

Answer 21

So what if the code sucks. Maybe they hired you because they thought you could help them improve. Do you know why they hired you in the first place or even wanted to pay you more than other offers? The answer to this question will guide you closer to the right answer.

Answer 22

I keep hearing phrases such as "in this economy..." and "if it doesn't look good on your resume, then..." Question these mantras. In fact, consider their opposites:

In this economy, don't settle for less. If anything, the crisis we're in should make us more daring. If you're unhappy with your current job, make a move. Don't use the economic situation as an excuse to remain stagnant.

If it doesn't look good on your resume, then maybe you're doing something right. Some employers (the ones you want to work for) might respect the reasons you give for leaving your job. In fact they might admire you for making such a bold move.

Answer 23

Be wary of accepting a higher second offer. That will probably make you one of the higher paid people at your level, and therefore one of the first to go when layoffs are happening.

Answer 24

My advice... Live cheaply (easy when you're younger), keep reading, invest your bread and with any luck you won't have to ask questions like this in another 15 years. And make sure you drain your current company for every bit of knowledge that you can. That includes (like another poster said) trying to institue some change yourself. In that regard I can say that C++ been 'bery, bery good to me' for 11 years. My point is that jobs will always come and go. Its most important that you save every dime you can and don't fall into the trap of saying..."well, I'll start saving when I start making more.."....nuh-uh, do it now. END OF SPEECH. Oh no, one final bit of advice...If you want a foolproof way of determining how little someone knows about SQL...If in a 5 minute conversation with you they say the term: 'Cartesian product'...you can be certain that they know NOTHING about it, and have done even less.....NOW END OF SPEECH