Follow the code - to India ? Has anyone done it

Question

I'm currently finishing my degree and have begun the job hunt. I'm based in Ireland and while all the major tech companies are here they primarily focus on localization, which does not interest me.

I'd like to work on a product with the aim of staying inside a big tech company and end up running it or something along those lines.

So looking at my short term objectives (Working on something interesting) it would appear India is the place to be (The USA is just too stringent on work visa's MS offered me a position in Denmark of all places!)

So has anyone ever followed the land of the outsourceee ? I mean since all the jobs are moving to India am I being naive to assume I can follow them ? Do they promote diversity in India as much as hubs such as the UK, USA etc.? OR are they only likely to take on a local hire?

Answer 1

I did a job in Denmark a while back now, it was a little odd at first, but I grew to actually kind of like it. It's clean, the people are friendly, in some cases disconcertingly open. They are also rapidly becoming one of the leading forces in environmental concerns and engineering and they have amazing social programmes. It could actually be a very exciting time to pursue a position there. You're still close enough to home to hop on a plane for the weekend to go and see family and friends; and Europe is still [and will be for the foreseeable future] the Mecca of cheap international travel. If you decide after work on a Friday to take off, you can still be home in Ireland quick enough to go out with the lads for a pint before last call - and still have change from your last hour's pay.

Also, the code may seem to be coming out of India, but I've worked on some projects where I've inherited code from India [no offence to the good programmers out there], but the large majority of it is complete garbage.

I don't think this is at all the fault of the quality of programmers out there, but I do think it has a lot to do with cultural and language barriers between project architects being from one country/continent/hemisphere and the coders being from another. I think this would be reflected equally if coding was being outsourced from India to the U.S. When you separate the coders from architects you will always have these problems, I can't see a way they can be avoided.

It could be very eye opening, culturally satisfying and a great way to see that part of the world, but I would definitely recommend doing a LOT of research before you jump into something like that or you could find yourself thousands of miles from home segregated from friends and family and not in the position you'd hoped for.

I moved from the UK to Canada ten years ago where they speak English [allegedly] and thought it would be a breeze. Everyone laughs when I tell of the huge problems I found with the language/cultural barrier here - it's easier now after this long, but even now I sometimes get stuck. How do you explain ideas/concepts/things where you can only explain using other ideas/concepts/things they've also never heard of? Simple [if a little silly] example to illustrate the point: How do you explain Marmite to someone whose never heard of either that or Vegemite or pickle - the Branston variety? The food ones are the most obvious.

Technology here is different too, half of my DVD collection didn't work, and try explaining to the 16 year old in the electronic store what region encoding is, trying to figure out how to make your DVD player region free, or using your old English one and running it through a PAL/NTSC converter. If your eyes just glazed over, don't worry - the kid in the electronic store's did too. If you can't explain technology to a guy that's supposed to understand technology, you know it's a lost cause.

People who grow up in major cultural centres - Europe, the UK, Hong Kong, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore etc who are used to being able to place their hands on whatever they want at short notice will likely find it [as I did] extremely frustrating trying to get things done with any sense of urgency. A week next Tuesday is not an acceptable answer to "When can I get my toilet unblocked?"! They also have different expectations on standards of living and what constitutes acceptable standards, this stems from personal comfortabilities, values and priorities. When you're ripped out of your comfort zone, those things that you once never gave a second thought or took for granted can come crashing down around you in a completely unexpected fashion.

Living in a country is hugely different than visiting there. When you're visiting, you're not really exposed to anything that affects those that live there on a day to day basis. Government, local news, garbage pickup etc. How many countries have you visited and gone away knowing who's running for local office, rental laws, how many people got held hostage in the local school today, why didn't they take your garbage but they took everyone else's on the street? What do you mean there's no garbage tickets? What the hell are they and where do I get them? I have to pay for those?! Why haven't I received any mail since I arrived? What the heck is a communal mailbox? What does that diamond on the road mean and why are you giving me a ticket for driving in that lane?! Why does everyone drive so slow in the fast lane? Why doesn't anyone use their indicators? Why can't I get my car in manual? What do you mean what is "manual"? The one where I change the gears, the opposite of automatic! That's standard? Unless I missed the definition of the word "standard", doesn't that mean: all cars should have that with that unless I specify otherwise? Shouldn't "standard" mean automatic then?

I appear to be going on a rant, so I'll stop there. Needless to say, things will come up that you would never even have thought to question before you arrive to live in another country. It is part of the fun of moving there, but be prepared for endless frustration and being the butt of everyone's jokes while you find your feet. The problem can only be ten-fold in a country where you don't share first languages and whose culture is so vastly different than your own.

Not warning you off by any stretch, I'm sure it would be fantastically exciting. I'm just giving you a heads up, it's not as simple as just moving - even if you already have the job lined up.

Another word of warning: Due to the vast difference in pay you can expect if you were to go to India - I would think it would be wise to make sure you have a ticket out of there before you leave because trying to afford the intercontinental flight back to the UK on the wage you'd receive in India would be extremely difficult. Always think about an exit strategy in situations like this before you jump in.

Answer 2

That sounds an awful lot like the episode of 30 days with the programmer who goes to seek his job. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0833623/)

My understanding is that India is extremely competitive (partially because so many people graduate) so it is better to go there if you are employed as a manager by a western company.

It's good to build recognition in a name-brand company, so MS in Denmark would be good (and the beer is better).

Also, US is not as stringent this year, since with the downturn the quota for H1B visas wasn't really filled.

Answer 3

They are most likely to take a local hire because they might think that you are too expensive. :)

If you are that keen, try to get work in a company which has an outsourcing arm in India or an Indian company based in Ireland. That should give you a chance to go to India for a shorter duration and based on your experience, you can decide whether you want to commit for a longer term.

Reminds me of this one:

What happens when a successful US-based computer programmer, who lost his lucrative job to outsourcing, travels to India to try to get it back?

Answer 4

Given your English skills I can't imagine that an Indian development company would want you in India. They would want you interfacing with their customers at their locations where your English is an asset.

In general, no India does not have the value of diversity in the way that the Europe does, certainly not socially. See here for a flavor of it. Now how much that will affect you, I can't say, but the point is that it is much more culturally acceptable to recognize people as different by birth.

Anyway, in terms of straight up programming, of course the whole point is that they don't pay well there. And although basic necessities are cheaper in India, the fact remains that the standard of living is way lower, and it doesn't sound like that is what you are looking for.

If Denmark isn't your cup of tea, you might consider Canada. That will be much more culturally compatible with what you know.

Answer 5

Keepin mind that going to india and work for an Indian company would give you an Indian salary. Which is fine but will make it difficult for you to return to Europe.

You should probably get a job at a US/Europe based product company which outsources the code to india. But to get send to India you need to have some domain knowledge about the product this company creates or have technical skill to architecture the product.

Answer 6

Don't do it.

I remember once us a group of students gathered in a room at SAP Germany videoconferencing with a young fellow who was sent to India. They were attempting to persuade one of us to go there for a half or a full year to participate in some interesting project. That guy was kinda describing all interesting things and advantages, but between the lines (okay, between scans of a display) we could read crying "Please, please, take me out of here!".

The quality of life there is not comparable to that of developed countries. Food can be dangerous and infected. Public toilets look like an open channel where you just pick up the location you like and do your job. I don't know about public security but heard stories about western companies collecting their employees at home, bringing them back and asking them not to go out in the town.

The last I heard $300/month is a top-manager salary. The ticket to home will likely cost you more.

See no point relocating to such conditions. It's not you who should hunt the job at all sacrifices because you want to do it, it's rather you take the job if it is promising and well-paid. If there are no perspectives in this field where you live, then maybe try some other neighbouring countries, become independent employee or just abandon that field.

Since I'm not a German guy and came here from the outside of EU I will permit myself an observation that the Europe is as good as a dead village for IT jobs. I'm not sure if you (and myself) can have any good career perspectives in this field. Unless you happen to be lucky to get to a big company and get quickly promoted or get somehow terrific references to become independent, you are bound to sit with the nominal salary until the day when you retire.

Answer 7

Actually, Denmark is the biggest development center Microsoft has in Europe, so it shouldn't surprise you that they offered you a job there. So I see no reason why you shouldn't at least consider that job. For that matter, I believe Google has a lot of development based in Ireland. Have you checked into that?

About jobs being moved to India, what gives you that idea? The jobs that are generally outsourced to India are the ones where:

• Efficient communication with the rest of the company isn't super important (if it was, they'd keep their programmers nearby, where they can meet when necessary, and they'd avoid too big culture or language barriers)
• Price matters more than quality (Paying a few hundred dollars a month per programmer, at the cost of having a lot less control over the quality of the programmers or the code they deliver.
• Aren't absolutely business critical. Microsoft isn't going to outsource the development of Windows. That job will always be done by Microsoft developers, at Microsoft's development centres, by programmers specifically hired by Microsoft where they know exactly what they're getting. NASA isn't going to outsource programming for the shuttles. They want to keep that close by where they know exactly what's going on.

So it's not about "following the code", but about what kind of code you want to follow. The important code, that businesses like Microsoft rely on in their core business? If so, follow the code to the USA, or another country where Microsoft has a strong presence (In Europe, that may just mean Denmark.) Or the code that no one really cares about, that gets sent to a different continent solely because it's cheaper?

Don't go to India unless you want to work on the projects that companies outsource. Which generally means the ones they're not willing to spend money on, and where they don't care enough about the result to keep it close at hand.

And of course, don't go to India unless you want to work for Indian wages and live by Indian living standards.

Answer 8

Your best option is getting job with Indian company but be located in western country of your choice. You will be treated royally in Indian company