ANSI joins versus "where clause" joins

Question

Hello, I develop against Oracle databases. When I need to manually write (not use an ORM like hibernate), I put join statements in the where clause sections.

for example (this is simplistic just to illustrate the style):

Select *
from customers c, invoices i, shipment_info si
where c.customer_id = i.customer_id
    and i.amount > 999.99 
    and i.invoice_id = si.invoice_id(+)  -- added to show how outer joins can be supported in this style
order by i.amount, c.name

I learned this style from an OLD oracle DBA. I have since learned that this is not standard SQL syntax. Other than being non-standard and much less database portable, are there any other repercussions to using this format?

Thanks, Jay

Answer 1

Some people will say that this style is less readable, but that's a matter of habit. From a performance point of view, it doesn't matter, since the query optimizer takes care of that.

Answer 2

Actually, this syntax is more portable than a JOIN, because it will work with pretty much any database, whereas not everybody supports the JOIN syntax (Oracle Lite doesn't, for example [unless this has changed recently]).

Answer 3

This is Transact SQL syntax, and I'm not quite sure how "unportable" it is - it is the main syntax used in Sybase, for example (Sybase supports ANSI syntax as well) as well as many other databases (if not all).

The main benefits to ANSI syntax is that it allows you to write some fairly tricky chained joins that T-SQL prohibits

Answer 4

The biggest issue that I have run into with this format is the tendency to forget some join's WHERE clause, thereby resulting in a cartesian product. This is particularly common (for me, at least) when adding a new table to the query. For example, suppose an ADDRESSES table is thrown into the mix and your mind is a bit forgetful:

SELECT *
  FROM customers c, invoices i, addresses a
 WHERE c.customer_id = i.customer_id
   AND i.amount > 999.99
 ORDER BY i.amount, c.name

Boom! Cartesian product! :)

Answer 5

I don't like the style because it makes it harder to determine which WHERE clauses are for simulating JOINs and which ones are for actual filters, and I don't like code that makes it unnecessarily difficult to determine the original intent of the programmer.

Answer 6

This is a standard SQL syntax, just an older standard than JOIN. There's a reason that the syntax has evolved and you should use the newer JOIN syntax because:

1. It's more expressive, clearly indicating which tables are JOINed, the JOIN order, which conditions apply to which JOIN, and separating out the filtering WHERE conditions from the JOIN conditions.

2. It supports LEFT, RIGHT, and FULL OUTER JOINs, which the WHERE syntax does not.

I don't think you'll find the WHERE-type JOIN substantially less portable than the JOIN syntax.

Answer 7

As long as you don't use the ANSI natural join feature I'm OK with it.

I found this quote by – ScottCher, I totally agree:

I find the WHERE syntax easier to read than INNER JOIN - I guess its like Vegemite. Most people in the world probably find it disgusting but kids brought up eating it love it.

Answer 8

The old style join is flat out wrong in some cases (outer joins are the culprit). Although they are more or less equivilent when using inner joins, they can generate incorrect results with outer joins, especially if columns on the outer side can be null. This is because when using the older syntax the join conditions are not logically evaluated until the entire result set has been constructed, it is simply not possible to express a condition on a column from outer side of a join that will filter records when the column can be null because there is no matching record.

As an example:

Select all Customers, and the sum of the sales of Widgets on all their Invoices in the month Of August, where the Invoice has been processed (Invoice.ProcessDate is Not Null)

using new ANSI-92 Join syntax

 Select c.name, Sum(d.Amount)
 From customer c
    Left Join Invoice I 
        On i.custId = c.custId
            And i.SalesDate Between '8/1/2009' 
                      and '8/31/2009 23:59:59'
            And i.ProcessDate Is Not Null
    Left Join InvoiceDetails d 
        On d.InvoiceId = i.InvoiceId
            And d.Product = 'widget'
 Group By c.Name

Try doing this with old syntax... Because when using the old style syntax, all the conditions in the where clause are evaluated/applied BEFORE the 'outer' rows are added back in, All the UnProcessed Invoice rows will get added back into the final result set... So this is not possible with old syntax - anything that attempts to filter out the invoices with null Processed Dates will eliminate customers... the only alternative is to use a correllated subquery.

Answer 9

I have since learned that this is not standard SQL syntax.

That's not quite true. The "a,b where" syntax is from the ansi-89 standard, the "a join b on" syntax is ansi-92. However, the 89 syntax is deprecated, which means you should not use it for new queries.

Also, there are some situations where the older style lacks expressive power, especially with regard to outer joins or complex queries.

It can be a pain going through the where clause trying to pick out join conditions. For anything more than one join the old style is absolute evil. And once you know the new style, you may as well just keep using it.

Answer 10

It really depends on habits, but I have always found Oracle's comma separated syntax more natural. The first reason is that I think using (INNER) JOIN diminishes readability. The second is about flexibility. In the end, a join is a cartesian product by definition. You do not necessarily have to restrict the results based on IDs of both tables. Although very seldom, one might well need cartesian product of two tables. Restricting them based on IDs is just a very reasonable practice, but NOT A RULE. However, if you use JOIN keyword in e.g. SQL Server, it won't let you omit the ON keyword. Suppose you want to create a combination list. You have to do like this:

SELECT *
FROM numbers
JOIN letters
ON 1=1

Apart from that, I find the (+) syntax of Oracle also very reasonable. It is a nice way to say, "Add this record to the resultset too, even if it is null." It is way better than the RIGHT/LEFT JOIN syntax, because in fact there is no left or right! When you want to join 10 tables with several different types of outer joins, it gets confusing which table is on the "left hand side" and which one on the right.

By the way, as a more general comment, I don't think SQL portability exists in the practical world any more. The standard SQL is so poor and the expressiveness of diverse DBMS specific syntax are so often demanded, I don't think 100% portable SQL code is an achievable goal. The most obvious evidence of my observation is the good old row number problemmatic. Just search any forum for "sql row number", including SO, and you will see hundreds of posts asking how it can be achieved in a specific DBMS. Similar and related to that, so is limiting the number of returned rows, for example..